Bookmakers

[mick]

Worth the read and the e mail to your MP. To some extent they are already doing this via ie-snare and i suspect off the record exchanges of customer info neither of which are used to identify and help problem gamblers, but if SCV is passed then it legalizes the practice.

SINGLE CUSTOMER VIEW - RIPE FOR ABUSE?​

Alongside the increased usage of affordability checks by many firms, one of the chief concerns raised by Lee was regarding the proposed ‘Single Customer View’ (SCV) concept and its impact on UK bettors.

For those of you not familiar with it, SCV would allow each bookmaker to view your betting activity and deposits with all other licensed bookmakers.

Its introduction is in theory designed to help counteract ‘problem gambling’, yet the very real and live concern is that it will just be abused by the bookmakers as a way to further profile gamblers – including those of us winning or with the goal of winning.

Bookmakers deny this of course – but we know through painful experience that they can’t be trusted and that their greed coupled with the current regulatory environment has allowed them to create many of the issues now facing the industry.

As punters many things divide us, but what often unites us is a complete mistrust towards bookmakers, especially the big name firms who for too long have had it all their own way.

Bookmakers and those representing them are also hugely influential government lobbyists and it was only a few days ago that the Guardian reported how MP’s had taken more than 220k from the bookmaker lobby as they seek to influence coming gambling law changes in their favour.

You will notice they are not complaining about the introduction of SCV – perhaps because they know exactly how useful accessing a punters complete information across ALL firms will be.

FIGHTING BACK​

The reality of the situation is that as punters we need to fight back and to raise awareness of this and associated issues with the people in positions of power and influence.

They need to know that bookmakers already have and use lots of tools in their possession to profile winning bettors, so why not apply this to losing ones too?

This New York Times article suggests Skybet know a scary amount about each of us that bet with them already.

We also need to raise the concept of a Minimum Bet Law (MBL) again because as another pro punter and ex-Paddy Power head of trading, Anthony Kaminskas raised in his recent Star Sports interviews, it might well make them a lot more money if they introduced even a £500 MBL law and got rid of Best Odds Guaranteed (BOG) pricing on horse racing and other concessions.

After all most punters worth their salt can make money without the need for BOG to give their winners a boost. Often it only really helps perennial losers long-term as the winners have it quickly removed or their accounts closed.

The reality is that a MBL will only work if ALL firms are compelled to offer it at the same time, so it requires legislation and regulation. It works in Australia after all – so why not here?

It is time to raise this again – here is how…

WRITE TO YOUR MP​

Another man fighting back on this topic is Betting trader and blogger, Caan Berry, who has written an excellent piece about the dark side of regulation.

Caan explores further the issues with affordability limits, SCV and the roles of Government, the Gambling Commission and major bookmakers in the current mess we face.

He also proposes a solution of writing to your MP to raise this topic with them and to voice your opposition to SCV, frustration about betting restrictions and the imperative of a Minimum Bet Law.

Writing to your MP is something SBC have advocated in the past including back in January when we led a petition to separate skilled betting with casino betting – something that gained a lot of traction in the industry.

I received several emails from SBC readers and members who did exactly this and the discussions subsequently held with their Member of Parliament.

Whilst a few MP’s are happy to enjoy the fruits of bookmaker lobbyist money, the majority have no dog in this fight and might well listen to a reasoned, well made article on policy and legislation that can make a difference. I imagine most of them have no idea about these issues, so your voice could well cut through.

So, like Caan says, write to your MP, outline the key points as you see them and your concerns. It needn’t be an essay but just a few paragraphs to make them aware in your own words.

You can find details on your MP and their email address via this link

You might think – why bother? My MP won’t listen to me and indeed some might not, yet we can hardly complain about something if we take no action now can we?

The more noise we make about the fallacy of SCV, Bookmaker greed, a Minimum Bet Law and the separation of skilled sports and casino betting the better our chances of being heard!

And also perhaps even the better the chance the topics raised in this article might even be picked up by other media outlets to give it the exposure needed.

 

[Arrocuda]

You need to rid yourselves of Windows and Mac PC's. I have a Windows 10 PC (Lenovo Tiny) that I keep in a drawer here inside my desk. It has no I/O devices other than being accessed as a server to my two Linux PC's on the desk. It can only access the internet for the Proform database updates through the Linux PC's which is why I did it cos I only use it for Proform. Everything else is done with Linux OS. The ie-snare spyware is not compatible with the open-source software browsers used by Linux distro's and cannot access your personal data files. The only exception I'm aware of could be Google's Chromium browser which is open source, but is very spyware friendly cos it's a Google product. So if you don't want bookies getting your data go Linux with a Vivaldi or Opera browser. TBH Windows 10 is a POS anyway and I wouldn't have it in my house if Proform offered an alternative.

 

[mick]

Please do consider e mailing your MP, even if you just copy and paste the first few sentences of the above adding .............Please read and investigate because this is being sold to your colleagues as an aide to helping problem gamblers and this is not true.

To all members of this forum regardless of you yet to experience being prevented from having a bet i would say the proposed SCV is an intrusive piddle take of us all and spending 5 mins sending an e mail to your MP would be a good use of your time.

The more of us who do then the better the chance of rocking the boat. The Bookmakers concerned will be counting on the fact that few will bother, and this alone is reason enough to be one who does.

PS : If you are involved with any other on line betting forums or the like then please copy and paste the whole article.

 

[Frontrunner]

Thanks for raising awareness about this mick . I didn’t know much about it until reading your post. We should do all we can to prevent this as it will affect us all.

 

[mick]

Thanks for raising awareness about this mick . I didn’t know much about it until reading your post. We should do all we can to prevent this as it will affect us all.

Thanks for helping to bump the thread as the more members who read the O/P then the better our chances. I would also recommend reading this as it might prove an eye opener for some. The Dark Side of Gambling Regulation -

 

[Arrocuda]

Maybe the best thing to do is put together a standard letter that has all the relevant points listed that folks can insert their own and their MP's details into. When the government proposed new rules for the registration of modified cars, customs and hotrods, basically making it more difficult for enthusiasts to get their car licensed and on the road, rodsandsods.co.uk put one up as a sticky on their forum. It had the desired effect and everyone was sending it to their MP, but having said that it had little if any effect. MP's just don't appear to respect the freedoms of their constituents much any these days and as mick pointed out earlier there are 220,000 reasons as to why they shouldn't. We should make it quite clear that any regulations that allow bookmakers to cherry pick their customers in such a way that discriminates against successful punters needs to be outlawed. Someone has to keep the bookmakers in check or are the politicians suggesting that all punters must lose money? If the bookmakers were regulated such that games of skill were prioritised over mind numbing fixed odds casino games we wouldn't have the problem in the first place.

Don't forget that if you want to protect your existing bookmaker accounts from ie-snare you need to get yourselves off of windows and mac anyway, irrespective of what happens with this new legislation cos as I see it we know they are already doing a watered down version of what is being proposed anyway. Only difference is that it's not targeted at problem gamblers it's being targeted to separate out winning punters.

 

[mick]

A cheeky post to bump the thread in the hope that more people will read the OP understand the consequences, and as requested bend there MPs ear.

 

[markfinn]

 

[Arrocuda]

Interesting interview Mark, thanks for posting it. I was surprised to hear that Betfair are already trialling the SCV process, but even more surprised that they were targeting successful punters with it. Given that it's a nett zero book and the fact that they need to attract big hitters to provide the liquidity an exchange needs, something that Betdaq have never really been able to compete with. I'd have expected that they would be reluctant to risk losing the bigger players as Betdaq would probably welcome them. I rarely use Betdaq but only because it's harder to get a bet on, especially at the mid to longer end of the market.

 

[pawras]

Worth the read and the e mail to your MP. To some extent they are already doing this via ie-snare and i suspect off the record exchanges of customer info neither of which are used to identify and help problem gamblers, but if SCV is passed then it legalizes the practice.

SINGLE CUSTOMER VIEW - RIPE FOR ABUSE?​

Alongside the increased usage of affordability checks by many firms, one of the chief concerns raised by Lee was regarding the proposed ‘Single Customer View’ (SCV) concept and its impact on UK bettors.

For those of you not familiar with it, SCV would allow each bookmaker to view your betting activity and deposits with all other licensed bookmakers.

Its introduction is in theory designed to help counteract ‘problem gambling’, yet the very real and live concern is that it will just be abused by the bookmakers as a way to further profile gamblers – including those of us winning or with the goal of winning.

Bookmakers deny this of course – but we know through painful experience that they can’t be trusted and that their greed coupled with the current regulatory environment has allowed them to create many of the issues now facing the industry.

As punters many things divide us, but what often unites us is a complete mistrust towards bookmakers, especially the big name firms who for too long have had it all their own way.

Bookmakers and those representing them are also hugely influential government lobbyists and it was only a few days ago that the Guardian reported how MP’s had taken more than 220k from the bookmaker lobby as they seek to influence coming gambling law changes in their favour.

You will notice they are not complaining about the introduction of SCV – perhaps because they know exactly how useful accessing a punters complete information across ALL firms will be.

FIGHTING BACK​

The reality of the situation is that as punters we need to fight back and to raise awareness of this and associated issues with the people in positions of power and influence.

They need to know that bookmakers already have and use lots of tools in their possession to profile winning bettors, so why not apply this to losing ones too?

This New York Times article suggests Skybet know a scary amount about each of us that bet with them already.

We also need to raise the concept of a Minimum Bet Law (MBL) again because as another pro punter and ex-Paddy Power head of trading, Anthony Kaminskas raised in his recent Star Sports interviews, it might well make them a lot more money if they introduced even a £500 MBL law and got rid of Best Odds Guaranteed (BOG) pricing on horse racing and other concessions.

After all most punters worth their salt can make money without the need for BOG to give their winners a boost. Often it only really helps perennial losers long-term as the winners have it quickly removed or their accounts closed.

The reality is that a MBL will only work if ALL firms are compelled to offer it at the same time, so it requires legislation and regulation. It works in Australia after all – so why not here?

It is time to raise this again – here is how…

WRITE TO YOUR MP​

Another man fighting back on this topic is Betting trader and blogger, Caan Berry, who has written an excellent piece about the dark side of regulation.

Caan explores further the issues with affordability limits, SCV and the roles of Government, the Gambling Commission and major bookmakers in the current mess we face.

He also proposes a solution of writing to your MP to raise this topic with them and to voice your opposition to SCV, frustration about betting restrictions and the imperative of a Minimum Bet Law.

Writing to your MP is something SBC have advocated in the past including back in January when we led a petition to separate skilled betting with casino betting – something that gained a lot of traction in the industry.

I received several emails from SBC readers and members who did exactly this and the discussions subsequently held with their Member of Parliament.

Whilst a few MP’s are happy to enjoy the fruits of bookmaker lobbyist money, the majority have no dog in this fight and might well listen to a reasoned, well made article on policy and legislation that can make a difference. I imagine most of them have no idea about these issues, so your voice could well cut through.

So, like Caan says, write to your MP, outline the key points as you see them and your concerns. It needn’t be an essay but just a few paragraphs to make them aware in your own words.

You can find details on your MP and their email address via this link

You might think – why bother? My MP won’t listen to me and indeed some might not, yet we can hardly complain about something if we take no action now can we?

The more noise we make about the fallacy of SCV, Bookmaker greed, a Minimum Bet Law and the separation of skilled sports and casino betting the better our chances of being heard!

And also perhaps even the better the chance the topics raised in this article might even be picked up by other media outlets to give it the exposure needed.

SCV??? like !!! WTF !!!

anyone that's bet for moe than 5mins will understand that will be purely a tool ban winners and target 'profitable' customers ie losers

 

[Sandhog]

Gambling for punters seems to be as much of a minefield as it ever was, with dodgy organisers ( industrial price -setters) on one side,
and, the anti-gambling lobbyists and MPs on the other.

Legislation to try protect losers from themselves ( based on percentage of "income" lost) on one stool, and, on the other, organisers, who identify and eliminate winning punters.

It would seem to indicate that only rich, useless, punters will be allowed.
Makes me think of a snake eating its own tail.

Smash, grab, and run seems the only way, before the whole thing goes completely under cover of the "Dark web".
Get it while you can.

 

[mick]

SCV??? like !!! WTF !!!

anyone that's bet for moe than 5mins will understand that will be purely a tool ban winners and target 'profitable' customers ie losers

The problem faced by said winners ( and increasingly those who appear that they could be ) is that they remain a minority so when they are prevented from continuing then understandably the majority are not going to feel any sympathy or interest. But to said majority i would say best take note because you could be next.

For the past few years the attitude of the large firm bookmakers has become " There will be no winners " but this is now progressing to " We will only tolerate losers " . So a recreational backer who breaks even over time may find that his normal £20 on a horse is suddenly restricted to a max £2 ( or less ) and if SCV is made legal then this will increase the instances of this.

Regardless of any of the above the intrusion of privacy enabled by SCV is a total piddle take of every single customer. Once again i would ask all members to read just the first few sentences in the OP think about the implications feel angry and e mail your MP, and perhaps also inform your betting friends or acquaintances because many will still be unaware of what the Bookmakers are up to.

 

[mick]

Interesting interview Mark, thanks for posting it.

I agree and would add that i am not an SBC subscriber (source of the OP), but am on there mailing list because they do sometimes share some of there Bookmaker surveys and other related articles of interest. I note they have been around for a long time and appear to conduct themselves in a decent and trustworthy manner.

 

[markfinn]

The problem faced by said winners ( and increasingly those who appear that they could be ) is that they remain a minority so when they are prevented from continuing then understandably the majority are not going to feel any sympathy or interest. But to said majority i would say best take note because you could be next.

For the past few years the attitude of the large firm bookmakers has become " There will be no winners " but this is now progressing to " We will only tolerate losers " . So a recreational backer who breaks even over time may find that his normal £20 on a horse is suddenly restricted to a max £2 ( or less ) and if SCV is made legal then this will increase the instances of this.

Regardless of any of the above the intrusion of privacy enabled by SCV is a total piddle take of every single customer. Once again i would ask all members to read just the first few sentences in the OP think about the implications feel angry and e mail your MP, and perhaps also inform your betting friends or acquaintances because many will still be unaware of what the Bookmakers are up to.

We are recovering old ground here and despite several letters over the years and some positive replies , the realities of the case is that these things take for ever to get on the list and the government changes every four years , legislation of this nature is not going to gain traction - where ever they can claim " Public Protection" you know where the hammer will fall and its never going to be on side of punters - Blame the lottery - Blame the Slot machines - Blame scratch cards - Blame football for allowing sponsorship of football shirts and mass marketing / brainwashing of school children - Blame computer games that can now be used for gambling in the form of rewards and free games - Blame the drug dealers etc that have a need to launder money - Blame the perceived betting culture backed up by loads of hard luck stories and deprived wives and children - Blame the bookies bonus schemes - Blame ................on and on.

The exchanges have the excuse that if you can afford it and prove your credentials what is your problem - the member quoted who had £ 100,000 in betfair un touched for a prolonged period ?? does that sound to be a correct / viable use of money, bound to raise questions . the big bookies, forget them them there are beyond rehabilitation to any form of old fashioned punter services.

Options
The Dark web is one option if you want to risk it - whats app bookies are another - will new companies be formed ? I can see the case for betting clubs being established much the same as private card schools only bigger and run through the net.

 

[Arrocuda]

One other thing I forgot to mention on the subject of 'ie snare' is that there are a lot of sites that tell you how to block the cookies on Windows and Mac, but there are almost as many reports of punters that have tried doing it only to have accounts closed down shortly after. This is because windows and Mac are designed to host spyware friendly browsers that report back to sites when access is denied. On a linux operating system the ie snare cookies aren't blocked, it's just that they are unable to be activated as the host OS doesn't recognise the file types as executable. So..... the data server at iesnare.com doesn't get the blocked PC signal alerting the bookies that you are attempting to go off grid, but also never gets any reports back from the cookies either.

 

[pawras]

I block iesnare in C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts but nullifying anything that refers to iesnare or iovation
i.e. adding this

127.0.0.1 iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 mpsnare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 mpsnare.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.mpsnare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 www.mpsnare.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 ci-mpsnare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 ci-mpsnare.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.ci-mpsnare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 www.ci-mpsnare.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 admin.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.admin.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 www.admin.iesnare.co.uk
127.0.0.1 iovation.com
127.0.0.1 iovation.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 www.iovation.co.uk
127.0.0.1 www.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 admin.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 dra.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 impsnare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 mpsnare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 mx.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 snare.iesnare.com
127.0.0.1 iovation.com
127.0.0.1 accountlock-demo.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 admin.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 bam-pilot.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 batch.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 ci-accountlock.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 ci-admin.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 ci-mpsnare.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 ci-snare.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 dv-fw-a-nat.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 ioit.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 mx.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 p.iovation.com
127.0.0.1 rm-admin-demo.iovation.com
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The only site it caused problems with was the old tote site.

But I think I'm paranoid enough get a small linux laptop.


So with this SCV what are they going to do about cash betters in shops?

 

[mick]

Arrocuda my understanding of this proposed SCV is that it will enable far more detail to be gleaned and exchanged than ie snare. Any bookmaker who subscribes to ie snare received the basics Re what the backer had done elsewhere but SCV would give a belt and braces insight. As mentioned in my OP i have long suspected that some traders have "off the book" reciprocal arrangements with other firms but this illegal activity would by necessity be limited, however SCV if implemented would open the flood gates.

 

[pete]

Options
The Dark web is one option if you want to risk it - whats app bookies are another - will new companies be formed ? I can see the case for betting clubs being established much the same as private card schools only bigger and run through the net.

There are of course lots of options already setup and ready to take on the disenfranchised UK punters. The unregulated "offshores" have been marketing to American punters for many years, and they are looking for new blood now that USA markets are becoming more open to nationwide legal books who are willing to take their money legally.

 

[Arrocuda]

Arrocuda my understanding of this proposed SCV is that it will enable far more detail to be gleaned and exchanged than ie snare. Any bookmaker who subscribes to ie snare received the basics Re what the backer had done elsewhere but SCV would give a belt and braces insight. As mentioned in my OP i have long suspected that some traders have "off the book" reciprocal arrangements with other firms but this illegal activity would by necessity be limited, however SCV if implemented would open the flood gates.

All the more reason to get yourself familiarised with Linux OS sharpish, if only for a betting safe browser service. You can download Linux for free onto a USB stick then load it up on to an old windows PC that you have already removed any stuff you want to keep cos you will maybe want to overwrite the hard disc when you install it. You can set it up as a dual boot by following the install instructions where you can leave the windows OS on as well if you prefer, providing the hard disc has the capacity. You can keep your windows activities separate on your existing PC, say for work or whatever, just remember never to go on bookies web sites with it as you could get busted. Warning: For all of you that have never used Linux. It's far superior to windows in many ways and won't be soon before you are using it for almost everything. Don't believe me just check it out on the web.

One other thing..... don't get involved with the more exotic flavours of Linux if you are a newbie. You will be out of your depth before you've so much as reached the welcome screen. Go with one of the ubuntu based distro's as they are very windows like in the way they operate. LinuxLite is very good for older PC's cos it's only about 1.5gb fully loaded, is also extremely fast when you run it on a current spec' PC.

 

[markfinn]

There are of course lots of options already setup and ready to take on the disenfranchised UK punters. The unregulated "offshores" have been marketing to American punters for many years, and they are looking for new blood now that USA markets are becoming more open to nationwide legal books who are willing to take their money legally.

How do you / we find them -

Why dont pinnacle come into the UK markets ?