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Jack's blog attempt

Well you would need to ask dave58 dave58 but to my mind he has already answered this via his above post, as have i and other members. When we post on forums its always preferable to suggest rather than to tell or assume.?
Clearly i need to be very very careful with the choice of words i use but dave58 dave58 has been on the other forums for many years and i have a good idea how he thinks, he sticks to the rules until it's time to revue them.
 
Systems do push you into backing what the system says back - otherwise what is the point of creating a system

Back to staking - Variable stakes determined by odds or chances

backing more than two is possible but rarely worth the effort unless big stakes are employed - but 5 or 2 the the idea is the same

If you have 2 or ? candidates left after the system or the profiling process is completed - simply make those left the entire field and reduced your Value to a percentage of the whole rating - set yours required odds -and do same with your stake and split it accordingly the better rating will attract a larger stake but all are backed ( if the odds are there ) - its a great way of seeing if your ideas are actually working and at the say same you are ignoring the herd , you might coincide with the market but that's going to happen at least 30% of the time - but you have not let the market influence your decision.

The only draw back with this with the larger number of potential runners you run the risk of not getting your required odds
markfinn markfinn Good post and am i correct in thinking you are agreeing with what Jackform Jackform wrote? One point to consider though, when you say ignoring the herd do you recall mlmrob saying that 66% of non-handicap races are won by the 1st or 2nd fav which certainly surprised me.
 
markfinn markfinn Good post and am i correct in thinking you are agreeing with what Jackform Jackform wrote? One point to consider though, when you say ignoring the herd do you recall mlmrob saying that 66% of non-handicap races are won by the 1st or 2nd fav which certainly surprised me.
Agreeing with some of it in principle - but not intentionally backing to level returns your fav might be 50/1 and you will have staked more % of the total stake on it the market fav could be your 2nd choice with less stake on it- but that's chance - and if you believe only one can win it will get the full stake.

What all this disregards is race selectivity - Mick will often go weeks with out a bet - myself I have gone from rating and backing every day to being lucky to see a decent per week - its about choice but the reality or the acid test , is backing for money and being honest with yourself and seeing the bank out. Its the only way to test your ideas.

Mlmrob was referring historically to every race that's has been run over the past few years - in fact that stat remains pretty constant no matter how far back you go - which is at odds with the quote that we hear so often bandied about "punters being at a greater advantage now"
 
Clearly i need to be very very careful with the choice of words i use.
As should we all, problems on forums are mostly triggered by the wrong choice or use of words. Often it is not what is said but the way its presented which causes negative responses which can escalate and imo this creates a lose - lose for us all. ?
 
I think you can use systems and form together btw, but yes level stakes are best on all bets because why are you backing them if you do not have all the usual factors lineing up one uses, or if a system that is not well tested of course as much as one can.

But one must allways remember freak events and sequences can occur so keep a betting bank seperate of what one can afford to lose.
 
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My previous post was a verbatim copy of a Sporting Chron sports forum letter from many years ago (I have them back to 1973), but I thought it was of interest. A favourite system is the old Fineform master formula, where I have tweaked the recent form rating element. This is an example from my pen-and-paper chart today:

Exeter (going forecast G with some GF showers - not ideal for me?) RP Spotlight selects Teaser (1 pundit agrees 11 oppose).
3.30 Market expected 10.25* nos 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 indicating an open contest. Theoretical strong fav 9/4, Possible contender 9/2, not expected longer than 9/1.

2*. 18 = 9/2 Fineform fair odds (9/1 mkt) Field Exhibition
8*. 16 = 6/1 (4/1) Teaser. 2 tips
9*. 17 = 5/1 (4/1) Keep Moving. 8 tips, 167 LTO? P Hobbs (top track trainer)/TJ O'Brien
10. 16 = 6/1 (10/1) Royal Plaza

Comment: Looks difficult on paper for punters with a watching brief probably being sensible. Keep Moving has early support and the yard does well here, whereas Field Exhibition is not currently being supported.

ATR form verdict in comparison.
Keep Moving returned to winning ways over a similar trip at Chepstow in April and should remain competitive off this 2lb higher perch, though of more interest is FIELD EXHIBITION, who has the benefit of a recent run to her name after picking up the silver medal over 2m5f at Newton Abbot last month. Others to bear in mind include consistent veteran Dandridge (9/1 mkt) and Adimelo (16/1 mkt), who won impressively at Sligo in August.

Top Tip: FIELD EXHIBITION (2)
Watch out for: KEEP MOVING (9)
 
Hi Jackform Jackform

I t helps if you state from the very beginning that is the work of someone else and to give a reference to the author, otherwise anyone reading the post will think it is your own work.

With regards to the race that you have posted And your first choice.
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Jackform Jackform when replying to another members post you mentioned that you was not especially interested in discussing staking in this blog which is fair enough, but with good intentions could i ask you to make mention of the topics you would like to interact about as this info might prove helpful to all.

Also i do feel that Chesham Chesham has made a valid point above, nothing wrong with posting a copy of another persons work but best all round if this is made clear at the time. This suggestion is not intended as personal to yourself but rather applicable to us all.
 
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mick mick, I am most interested in concentrating on improving selection and whether doing it yourself or following professional advice is better. I find doing my own assessments interesting but at the same time I always compare the result with professional verdicts, as per my race example today.
 
mick mick, I am most interested in concentrating on improving selection and whether doing it yourself or following professional advice is better. I find doing my own assessments interesting but at the same time I always compare the result with professional verdicts, as per my race example today.
Does this mean you welcome interaction Jackform Jackform ?
 
T tacker, yes I am interested in any constructive dialogue. Things I do like are the early market each day, updating a list of punter friendly trainers weekly, working within set parameters such as going, field size, race class, market expected etc. I am old-fashioned so just a pen-and-paper operator mainly, which restricts the number or races I can check.
 
Just to get staking out of the way. This is my system for supporting up to three runners, depending on the market. Also nothing below 6-4 as the risk outweighs the return for me.

Betting to clear a percentage of the bank as a level return on each bet. I start with an aim of 1% increasing to 3% and a maximum of 5% as the season progresses if things are going well and dropping back a percentage or more, even pausing to have a rethink when they are not. Say, with a bank of 5,000 points the aim is 1% = 50. Then a selection at 4/1 would need a stake of 13 to clear (supporting up to 3 in a race as long as the total stake does not exceed the 1% that is 50 overall. So 5/2 = 20, 4/1 = 13, 5/1 = 10 total 43. With a win 50 is cleared minus the other two stakes, providing a reduced return.
 
3.30 ex Having looked at the race nothing stood out for me but CAP ST VINCENT went up in the ratings for a couple of wins the second of which showed promise, then he finished 3rd on softer ground so maybe he can go well today. Not run for a good while so no way of knowing if this is a serious going day or not so just a good luck to you with yours and a little apology for cluttering up your thread.
 
3.30 ex Having looked at the race nothing stood out for me but CAP ST VINCENT went up in the ratings for a couple of wins the second of which showed promise, then he finished 3rd on softer ground so maybe he can go well today. Not run for a good while so no way of knowing if this is a serious going day or not so just a good luck to you with yours and a little apology for cluttering up your thread.
Jackform Jackform T tacker and any one else - I dont know how you the time to look at all races - do you have preference of race
 
mick mick, I am most interested in concentrating on improving selection and whether doing it yourself or following professional advice is better. I find doing my own assessments interesting but at the same time I always compare the result with professional verdicts, as per my race example today.
How do you define professional advice.? I see you mention the pen and A4 ........me too. Although i use and like RI i still think the former is important although i have progressed to very posh pens and paper. Neither have improved my profitability but both make the process more enjoyable. :)
 
race selection
Serious races - I down load all class 6 5 - handicaps - eliminating 2yr olds - 3 year old only - novices - fillies - conditional jockeys - any fields over 12 - generally any distance over 1m 2f on the flat - preferring the 5 - 8f any 3year olds

then open the cards any with more than eliminating any fields of 6 or less 1/4 of runners getting WFA - eliminating any races with 1/4 of runners 0 wins to date

this can take 15mins and that's with practice - now got to look at conditions of race - etc - if lucky generally end with 5 races ? week

So fair play to anyone who can find a few bets a day by spotting
Something unexposed so just maybe the trainer is ahead of the handicapper
 
mick mick, I hadn't thought about 'professionals', but I suppose a list to consider could be those in the naps table. However, I prefer those that provide a tissue or ratings that can be converted such as - Spotlight, RPR, Formcast, Topspeed, Timeform etc. These can easily be checked against the early market odds in restricted races. Spotlight I like as I had some unbiased support for those involved:

Spotlight As A System (my heading)
Let me start by posting the opinion of Tim Drakeford regarding systematic betting from a free e-book published about a decade ago.

“The ending of this brings me back to the heading of this section: the professional approach. We believe that the professional approach must be based on racing systems. The system is the cornerstone of rational punting. A system is an inflexible set of rules for making selections to back. For those with good punting temperament, this may merely constitute the framework for selection, providing potential qualifiers from amongst which final bets are drawn on the basis of gut feelings. It is very difficult not to become irrational when things are running against you on this basis, though. This is where the inflexible system scores time and time again. Selections are automatically backed whatever the gut feelings, and it’s surprising how often the gut feelings prove wrong, especially if one is an inherently insecure or pessimistic punter.”

(and from me)
The Spotlight correspondent is employed by the Racing Post to compile the betting forecast for a race or races where the odds compiled include a theoretical percentage to reflect the layers’ margin. This then needs to be deducted to arrive at what are the Spotlight fair odds. Fair odds, of course, are those where there is no advantage to any player. In the verdict for each race Spotlight gives his selection and any dangers for the race.
Corresponding with, Colin Evans (a man of integrity IMO) He was a semi-pro punter in the late 80’s and wrote an article published in the Smart magazine where he concluded after checking 5,000 races that in the majority of races the Spotlight betting forecast assessment was ‘spot on’.

I bought a book ‘A Better Bet’ by Professor Frank George in 1978 when computers for the masses was in its infancy. At the time he was head of the Cybernetics department at Brunel University. My thinking was that if anyone should be capable of crunching numbers he was the man. Some years ago I used to do form research for a professional backer and he loaned me a manuscript copy of a follow on from ‘A Better Bet’. The point being that in the beginning the Prof was seeking ‘value’ bets better than fair odds but after seven years he moved to finding ‘viable’ bets, this being a bet that could be considered some way short of value but still at worthwhile odds.
 
At the time he was head of the Cybernetics department at Brunel University. My thinking was that if anyone should be capable of crunching numbers he was the man. Some years ago I used to do form research for a professional backer and he loaned me a manuscript copy of a follow on from ‘A Better Bet’

Morning Jack - I remember Prof Georges widow saying that the follow book rights had passed to - A Another - and was looking forward to it but it never appeared in print as far as I know that is - how did differ from the 1st - in regard to Horse racing that is as he covered other aspects in the initial book.
 
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