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I did it my way

My stance is still the same as before and I have no intention of locking horns with you all over again, I am happy to be involved with opinions.

Hi,

Have to say I found your reply slightly disappointing. As I don't really consider we "locked horns" before, It was more a case of you telling me I was wrong with little or no explanation as to why. As this is a by invite forum I did think it would be possible for you to go into some detail here.

Can I ask who's opinion would interest you, I would have thought the opinion of some one who has spent some time looking and working the examples would have been of some/more interest?

I have stated I don't think a selection has to be a probable, Fulham has said he doesn't agree. Where do you stand on this?

Be Lucky
 
Mtoto:
Have to say I found your reply slightly disappointing. As I don't really consider we "locked horns" before, It was more a case of you telling me I was wrong with little or no explanation as to why. As this is a by invite forum I did think it would be possible for you to go into some detail here.

Mtoto,
I have never had a problem posting or answering anything, my problem is with the asking and then the answering, to completely stamp over others thinking without going away and investigating it, just tells me that it is pointless posting.
I understand now that what is put across will always clash with your present thinking and you will always retort to how you see it,that is understandable.


Mtoto:
Can I ask who's opinion would interest you, I would have thought the opinion of some one who has spent some time looking and working the examples would have been of some/more interest?

Again, I have no problems talking to anybody,plain and simple.


Mtoto:
I have stated I don't think a selection has to be a probable, Fulham has said he doesn't agree. Where do you stand on this?

Here we go backwards in time, if you mean,...a VDW probable, then I believe it does have to be a probable to be a bet,hence you are putting the odds in your favour.
But there are races run everyday,I am sure there are horses that win that do not carry the probable trait, a horse that has its first run of the season, a horse that has never run and so on and so forth.

Just for clarity, the Erin numbers were just a way that VDW looked at FORM, my belief is that Fulham thinks they are some magical set of numbers that find the winner of all races, he needs to move on.
His probable device is funny, he can select most winners VDW selected, yet he cannot find a winner in today's races, surely that is just backfitting.
It takes a little of bit of thinking.
I have no problem admitting that I had gone down the wrong cul de sac a few times, I think it is necessary to do this,you will never know if it is wrong.

Anyway, I hope the reply is OK.
 
Oh and by the way, Frankel definitely read the VDW books, I understood his point,but there is a element of reading books that has to be learned and taken on board by the reader, the author cannot spoon feed the interpretation ,it has to be nurtured by the reader, 'knowing how to bake a cake will not always make a fine cook of you'
 
Fight...Fight
My view Bobo,is that you are not a true VDW disciple,
you don't drone on for hooouuuuurrrssssZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
about races that were run 35 years ago in a supercilious way that suggests any non follower is a pleb,you haven't mentioned that you spent many years seeking,and have eventually found the secret and hidden meaning of the word 'it',and you haven't said you're keeping your powder dry once.
 
Sadly my good friend Hayzee,....I could??,..but the truth is not to be found in those quarters and I am sure by now Mtoto realises that.
 
I have never had a problem posting or answering anything, my problem is with the asking and then the answering, to completely stamp over others thinking without going away and investigating it, just tells me that it is pointless posting.

I can only agree, but have to say I find it hard to understand why this is being aimed at me. You make statements as if they are facts and not just your opinion and then complain when others query them. Can I ask have you ever studied or checked out my thoughts and opinions?

Here we go backwards in time, if you mean,...a VDW probable, then I believe it does have to be a probable to be a bet,hence you are putting the odds in your favour.

The question then is how do you decide which of the VDW selections were bets and can you make all of those selections probables? As for going backwards that may well be how you and others look at it but for me it is very much part of the present.

Everything I do when finding my selections is based on VDW's thinking. The large majority of winners still come from the areas VDW highlighted the consistent horses in the forecast and ability being the all important element. I can find no pointer to the fact VDW used the Probables, or Erin numbers as a way of looking at form. If this is so can you explain how/why the horse with the joint lowest Erin number is eliminated by most as being a none form or out of form horse? If I remember correctly you said you agreed about him being a none form horse

While I do think Fulham has come up with some very complicated ideas/theories about the VDW workings, I find it hard to fault the amount of work he has put into it. Not only that he does go out of his way to try to explain his reasoning, so an opinion can be taken as to the worth of the idea.

Be Lucky
 
Mtoto:

I can only agree, but have to say I find it hard to understand why this is being aimed at me. You make statements as if they are facts and not just your opinion and then complain when others query them. Can I ask have you ever studied or checked out my thoughts and opinions?

It does not make sense that I would view what I have investigated as just an opinion,there is an element of vagueness attached to that word,I have to view it as facts until myself or someone either proves it incorrect.
Yes I have studied your thoughts,it would be rude not to.


Mtoto:

The question then is how do you decide which of the VDW selections were bets and can you make all of those selections probables? As for going backwards that may well be how you and others look at it but for me it is very much part of the present.

Horses need to be eliminated and VDW gave us a way of doing this,do not assume that VDW just looked at horses at the front end of the market.
In 'Betting The VDW Way' he gave us a critique on all the horses taking part and reasons why it was not their day.
In 'Systematic Betting , he did the same for Roushayd's 4 races,etc


Mtoto:
Everything I do when finding my selections is based on VDW's thinking. The large majority of winners still come from the areas VDW highlighted the consistent horses in the forecast and ability being the all important element. I can find no pointer to the fact VDW used the Probables, or Erin numbers as a way of looking at form. If this is so can you explain how/why the horse with the joint lowest Erin number is eliminated by most as being a none form or out of form horse? If I remember correctly you said you agreed about him being a none form horse

I know exactly how you derive your horses, using split seconds best figures and the class of race as your ability ,but although I commend you for finding something that works for you,this is not VDW.
Beacon Light was a none form horse, I actually said he was a form horse on UKBT, to piss Fulham off and to draw out DBMB's opinion.
There are easy identifiable facts that easily tell you why this is so, along with Burrough Hill Lad, Lucky Vane and the other one escapes me a the moment.
I am not going to spell it out,but the answer lies in.

' Go back to the beginning it is all tied up with temperament and odds.'

Mtoto:
While I do think Fulham has come up with some very complicated ideas/theories about the VDW workings, I find it hard to fault the amount of work he has put into it. Not only that he does go out of his way to try to explain his reasoning, so an opinion can be taken as to the worth of the idea.

That just takes us back to the quote about baking a cake again.
'knowing how to bake a cake will not always make a fine cook of you'

To be honest,I do not want to waste any room in this post on the matter,the chap clearly knows absolutely nothing about horse racing and his self pinned VDW badge is showing signs of tarnishing.
 
It does not make sense that I would view what I have investigated as just an opinion,there is an element of vagueness attached to that word,I have to view it as facts until myself or someone either proves it incorrect.

Perhaps we are at cross purposes here, I'm not saying the results of your investigations are opinion. More do they comply with VDW's actual thinking, and did he use the information in the way you think he did?

I know exactly how you derive your horses, using split seconds best figures and the class of race as your ability ,but although I commend you for finding something that works for you,this is not VDW.

Can I point you to To-Agori-Mou, are you saying this isn't VDW?

I am not going to spell it out,but the answer lies in.

This for me is the problem, folk who hide behind this statement!! It tell us nothing. You mention two horses that VDW said were not form horses, I agree 100% about that but I'm also sure WE wouldn't agree on the reason for thinking it. For me Burrough Hill Lad wouldn't/couldn't be a form horse when you look at his record in races shorter than 3 miles + and his record at Kempton shows he had plenty to find to produce his best. Lucky Vane wasn't consistent so couldn't be a consistent form horse for that race. I can't really make BL fail for either of those reasons. The only other reason to fail him on form is contradicted by other examples, so I have to be happy with the reason I have found and take heart in the fact VDW agrees by way of his rating. Which brings me back to To-Agori-Mou,

Be Lucky
 
Mtoto:

Perhaps we are at cross purposes here, I'm not saying the results of your investigations are opinion. More do they comply with VDW's actual thinking, and did he use the information in the way you think he did?

Bit of a daft question of course I do, I have already explained that I view them as facts.

Mtoto:

Can I point you to To-Agori-Mou, are you saying this isn't VDW?

To-Agori-Mou was a horse in VDW list of 1981 of course he was a bet
The post you refer to refers to horses who have not won race and shows the mechanics of it all, simple.
It is interesting to note the same graph showed up in TUWOF regarding making lists from 2yo's
What you have to ask yourself is if they are what you believe they are, why did he offer them up after 'Spells It All Out'?, surely they would of been offered up before.


Mtoto:

This for me is the problem, folk who hide behind this statement!! It tell us nothing. You mention two horses that VDW said were not form horses, I agree 100% about that but I'm also sure WE wouldn't agree on the reason for thinking it. The only other reason to fail him on form is contradicted by other examples, so I have to be happy with the reason I have found and take heart in the fact VDW agrees by way of his rating. Which brings me back to To-Agori-Mou,

I am not hiding behind the statement, VDW offered it up and I am explaining if you want to understand how he eliminated horses, you need to decypher the statement, I believe I may of told you what it meant in private and it was for that reason they were left for you to investigate.
I will also tell you that them horses were not eliminated for the reasons you have given.
I refer you back to the statement I am supposedly hiding behind.
 
This is the only thread on here where there appears to be a difference of opinion, friction, whtever you would like to call it, show us your stuff, pre race!!!! see who knows their onions.
 
Hi Boba, on the vino again and just wandering through stuff, the dialect between you and mtoto seems more civilised than I have seen on other VDW threads on many other forums but still has an edge to it I was just worried it might escalate here and sides be joined, spoiling whats great so far. I confess to knowing nowt about it and so will leave you`se to it, good luck. ;D
 
I think of all VDW posters Mtoto has always had my respect, even when we haven't seen eye to eye.
He speaks his mind and says it how he sees it irrespective of my opinion or anyone's come to that.
There is only so much I want to say on a forum,either open or closed, why should I give all the hard work away?

Here is a something I will say.
In 'Betting The VDW Way' Van Der Wheil mentions that a 2nd numerical picture should be formulated and he says "to confirm what the figures say" , this part of the statement is quite telling.
To confirm numbers, surely you should be looking around the same location in order to make comparisons,how could you possibly confirm them otherwise, but rather than the individual, you should be looking at what was surrounding it.
If you were to just to put your focus on the individual,then you would not gain a true strength or consistency
 
To-Agori-Mou was a horse in VDW list of 1981 of course he was a bet.

You will find To-Agori-Mou was first mentioned when VDW was talking about ratings. So I did find it strange when he mentions the horse is in article 47 when he says about horses that have never won.
Why choose this race as an example ? 19 runners and only one hadn't won a race, 13 of these horses had won at least two races. He then has To-Agori-Mou rated 2nd best using his rating in front of at least 9 horses with higher ability ratings. So when I read the original article when VDW is talking about his rating and after he has stated class and form are the dominate factors would those two elements really be ignored when formulating the rating?

What you have to ask yourself is if they are what you believe they are, why did he offer them up after 'Spells It All Out'?, surely they would of been offered up before.

You will find the first time VDW mentions ability ( in letter 19) it is based on a speed figure, as you know this was well before SIAO.

I am not hiding behind the statement, VDW offered it up and I am explaining if you want to understand how he eliminated horses, you need to decypher the statement, I believe I may of told you what it meant in private and it was for that reason they were left for you to investigate.

You say this as if there can only be one reason and it is plain to see. I have to say I have never seen on any forum a reason to make Beacon Light a none/out of form horse. The most common reason offered is the drop in s/f and/or class in his last race but that doesn't hold up with other examples.

I will also tell you that them horses were not eliminated for the reasons you have given.
I refer you back to the statement I am supposedly hiding behind.


All I can say to that is I have given you what I consider to be logical reasons, so if you are sure I'm wrong why can't you give yours?

Scar,

I thought horse racing was all about differences of opinion. In fact I have to say much as I admire his work I don't agree with everything VDW wrote or thought.

Be Lucky
 
Mtoto:

You will find To-Agori-Mou was first mentioned when VDW was talking about ratings. So I did find it strange when he mentions the horse is in article 47 when he says about horses that have never won.
Why choose this race as an example ? 19 runners and only one hadn't won a race, 13 of these horses had won at least two races. He then has To-Agori-Mou rated 2nd best using his rating in front of at least 9 horses with higher ability ratings. So when I read the original article when VDW is talking about his rating and after he has stated class and form are the dominate factors would those two elements really be ignored when formulating the rating?

In the same post you talk about, he ironically precedes line with" Several times I have expressed the view that ratings should be looked upon as a guide only and not the ultimate means of selection."
As far as I know, you are using them as this, you use the speed ratings to select your probables.
The only clear reason I can see that it is mentioned in letter 45, is maybe a pointer to how he actually creates his own ratings,the suggestion that class and form are dominant is the clue to it,but I have not spent a lot of time trying find, although my belief is,they may be a set numbers derived and added to a speed rating or form rating, hence why would Mattaboy be top on his rating?

Mtoto:
You will find the first time VDW mentions ability ( in letter 19) it is based on a speed figure, as you know this was well before SIAO.
Another post about compiling lists, which was touch upon later in more detail,no suggestion at all that it is an ability rating,speed ratings as you know are class biased, his quip about which was the better rating Redcar or Epsom tells us this,but I have compiled my own,so know full well they factor in a class bias, so choosing horses that have reach a particular rating weeds out the horses who have ran at the poorer tracks and class,a sound basis for separating the wheat from the chaff, but it is also a pointer to how he appraises going back through their earlier form

Mtoto:
You say this as if there can only be one reason and it is plain to see. I have to say I have never seen on any forum a reason to make Beacon Light a none/out of form horse. The most common reason offered is the drop in s/f and/or class in his last race but that doesn't hold up with other examples.

I am sorry,but the answer is plainly obvious, you will never see it on a forum, I remember reading a post between yourself and one of the prolific posters,he is clearly telling you that it was the way that VDW eliminated horses without giving the game away, I am not sure you understand the pain and effort that has been put in,in order to understand VDW,spending hours unravelling it, frustration a plenty, just freely offering up on a forum just undoes all the effort that others would not have to go through.
I have given a leg up to many, but you have to do some of the legwork yourself,otherwise it is completely pointless journey.

Mtoto:
All I can say to that is I have given you what I consider to be logical reasons, so if you are sure I'm wrong why can't you give yours?

I appreciate you explaining your reasoning behind it all.
It is a complex puzzle to unravel, I have previously mentioned that most people are reading from the surface, it is below surface that you have to scratch, it is easily identifiable facts that need to be brought together and viewed,it is time consuming,the hard work part I suppose, but I will not be spreading it all over a forum, I have no problem giving others a nudge, you know that, what you do with it after is upto you.
 
Hello all,

I have only recently joined this forum so still finding my feet

Can i ask please do members have a recent selection they think is a perfect vd example please?

H
 
Hedgehog:

Can i ask please do members have a recent selection they think is a perfect vd example please?
welcome_zps66523bd0.gif


Syphilis ;)
 
Hedgehog:

Hello all,

I have only recently joined this forum so still finding my feet

Can i ask please do members have a recent selection they think is a perfect vd example please?

H

I doubt it mate,they usually can't agree on selections now,far too busy discussing the ins and outs of a cat's ring about selections made yonks ago,"may I draw your attention to the example of Far Canal,mentioned in an article published on 11 Oct in Volume 11 of the Strand Magazine 1891...

GWgEn.jpg



the real h...
 
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