• The issue has been fixed and hopefully you can post screen shots again
  • Hi Guest Just in case you were not aware I wanted to highlight that you can now get a free 7 day trial of Horseracebase here.
    We have a lot of members who are existing users of Horseracebase so help is always available if needed, as well as dedicated section of the fourm here.
    Best Wishes
    AR

Handicap Class Droppers

Well interesting first result there. Top on class of race both last time and the previous run but down the field in both. Carried second highest weight in the field just 1lb above both last runs in better class. So it appeared at the head of my table but I went for the 2nd on the table instead.
 
Tufnel Tufnel

I may be incorrect in thinking G Garry's interpretation of the HH examples is right, but I am certainly correct in thinking that VDW wrote nothing to suggest the six winners were bets or, as he sometimes described selections, "certainties" or "outstanding bets". Hence they don't form part of my "bets etc" subset for study relating to the <20% criteria.

It is probably me, but I am not sure you are researching the right issues with key horse form.

The [Roushayd type] selection needs to be a consistent class/form horse now dropping in class, and the key horse issue is whether in the selection's last race key horse (the second if he was a winner lto, otherwise as with Roushayd the winner), finished within the first three on its prior run (ie the race before he was the key horse in the selection's last race) AND was it in the first three of the returned betting for that race.

Those four requirements are tightly drawn. Three are plainly objective (give or take a view at the margin as to what constitutes a drop in class) but the first is much less so - you will have noted for example the differences between G Garry, you and me about the "form" and not "form" horses in the 18 Boxing Day 1986 races.

I expect that horses that met all four criteria are within your large data sets but unless I've missed something they comprise a subset which is not identified within them. It is the data from that subset that is theoretically of interest.
 
Leodis Leodis

Yes, I've looked at the 4.45 and have emailed my racing pal that, at the moment, it looks too difficult.

I am pondering it further, but currently I am not sure which horse is the class/form horse and I am not sure I'll be any clearer later.

It is tempting to think Toca Madera is the class/form horse. Second on ability and most certainly a VDW "form" horse. But whether he is a consistent class/form horse is another matter. I am not sure about that and I don't think VDW would be, either. He might have made a better judgement on the issue than me, but it would still be a judgement and one a precedent for which among his selections does not immediately come to mind.
 
Leodis Leodis

Yes, I've looked at the 4.45 and have emailed my racing pal that, at the moment, it looks too difficult.

I am pondering it further, but currently I am not sure which horse is the class/form horse and I am not sure I'll be any clearer later.

It is tempting to think Toca Madera is the class/form horse. Second on ability and most certainly a VDW "form" horse. But whether he is a consistent class/form horse is another matter. I am not sure about that and I don't think VDW would be, either. He might have made a better judgement on the issue than me, but it would still be a judgement and one a precedent for which among his selections does not immediately come to mind.
On my ratings, the form horses are :

Gold Star Hero​
Baker Blue​
Toca Madera​

GSH is the class/form one.

Although Toca Madera is a 'form' horse, it's last two SF's are way behind the other probables which would lead me to rule it out.

Not a betting race for me, having seen the projected pace map.

Regards
 
Tufnel Tufnel

I may be incorrect in thinking G Garry's interpretation of the HH examples is right, but I am certainly correct in thinking that VDW wrote nothing to suggest the six winners were bets or, as he sometimes described selections, "certainties" or "outstanding bets". Hence they don't form part of my "bets etc" subset for study relating to the <20% criteria.

It is probably me, but I am not sure you are researching the right issues with key horse form.

The [Roushayd type] selection needs to be a consistent class/form horse now dropping in class, and the key horse issue is whether in the selection's last race key horse (the second if he was a winner lto, otherwise as with Roushayd the winner), finished within the first three on its prior run (ie the race before he was the key horse in the selection's last race) AND was it in the first three of the returned betting for that race.

Those four requirements are tightly drawn. Three are plainly objective (give or take a view at the margin as to what constitutes a drop in class) but the first is much less so - you will have noted for example the differences between G Garry, you and me about the "form" and not "form" horses in the 18 Boxing Day 1986 races.

I expect that horses that met all four criteria are within your large data sets but unless I've missed something they comprise a subset which is not identified within them. It is the data from that subset that is theoretically of interest.
True on the "certainties" or "outstanding bets" but it's true he also used a range of such labels across the many examples given. He often said "good thing" which to most people's minds would infer he considers a good prospect though not always backable as he cautioned with One A Milllion who was referred to as a "good thing but not at the price".

So again, I would argue that just because he said he didn't back them, what would be the point of listing selections for a method if you didn't back a single one of them? I would further argue that it was a question of using different routes or methods to find selections which he was quite clear about.

I take your point re the consistent class/form status but in the absence of a definitive process that finds such a horse without ambiguity then it's tricky to test. Though the very situation I used of a horse running 2nd to a horse dropped in class does show a breakdown of what position that winner had placed in that higher class race. So you would think a horse who had won or placed in such a race like Drumgora then it improve the stats. But it doesn't appear to be the case.
 
Kalapana a horse I had not backed all season. Just 2 weeks ago she went past Minnie Hauk in the Arc in the last furlong as moving away from her the further they went but obviously not good enough to bother Daryz that day.

Just goes to show we are at the mercy of how horses are feeling on the day. As Ryan Moore just said of the winner it takes a lot to get a horse there and actually show it's form.
 
Tufnel Tufnel

I split the main VDW selections in two groups: ones he stated were bets or without saying he had backed them, described them in terms - "certainties" or "outstanding bets" - which suggested he had, and the rest.

The rest included some class/form horses VDW said he did not back, such as Kenlis, Gaye Chance and Beat The Retreat, but mostly he didn't say one way or the other. He may well have backed some but not others.

Once I've finished with the first group and have a view about the <20% horses, I can test the <20% criteria on the others to see which, if any, qualify on them. I am hoping that none of those who he said he didn't back have those characteristics and any of the rest that do I will assume were probably bets.

I haven't the HH six, the Boxing Day 18 or the Best Bet/next best six in either group, though obviously if I had it would be the second group. Once I've been through the second group as it now stands, then I'll revisit the others.
 
One for the Erin figures there in the QEII. Gstaad had a rating of 10 having had nothing worst than a 4 Erin in his previous 5 races. Talk Of New York mainly 2s and 3s and nothing worse than a 5.

I paid no heed and went with 2 horses who had 10 LTO.
 
Poor ride from Ballygeary's jock at Market Rasen. Probably wouldn't have beaten the winner but it would have been close but for the constant trouble in running he kept finding.

The winner was beaten in a seller a couple of weeks again when trained by trainer of the orig fav in this race today and was sold for peanuts. The winner of that seller got stuffed next time out and yet the 3rd horse Saint Polo was able to come and win a better race just a few weeks later for the new trainer and well backed to do so. I suppose the jockey booking told a story too.

Ah well the horse owes me nothing after winning last time but I think if you put Sean Bowen on Ballygeary in that it would have been a different result.
 
Leodis Leodis

Gold Star Hero comes out best on my performance ratings but as a class dropper (win prize money basis) lacks the key horse support I like to see.

I'm happy to sit this race out.
 
Limerick 4:05 At The Wings, It's Time Again and Tasmanian Girl.
Late decision to back these on the HH method.

Just watched my 3rd Ascot bet go down as Ombudsman clearly not finding the ground "soft" today.
Calandagan needs retiring. The spark seems to have gone now.
 
Must have been some money for Political Stance as it wasn't even in the first 8 of the betting last night.
Shocking efforts from my 3 in the race.

Bad day really. Perhaps making it worse by having a go in the last at Ascot with Gavriel, Hickory and Indalo.
 
The [Roushayd type] selection needs to be a consistent class/form horse now dropping in class, and the key horse issue is whether in the selection's last race key horse (the second if he was a winner lto, otherwise as with Roushayd the winner), finished within the first three on its prior run (ie the race before he was the key horse in the selection's last race) AND was it in the first three of the returned betting for that race.
In the Pegwell Bay letter VDW commented on the result with "The result makes it appear he is capable of winning again before long."

As we know Pegwell Bay dropped a bit in class to win next time out. But did Dudie the key horse in the Mackeson qualify as a good yardstick to measure the performance. Yes he was 2nd LTO but was also 4th in the betting of that much lower class race.

In fact in VDW's evaluation of the Mackeson he says of Dudie "First run and hasn't been impressive." which doesn't fit in very well with the key horses involved in the Roushayd races who were all presented by VDW as the most likely winners of each race but not wagers. Dudie was not remotely on the radar in the Mackeson evaluation.

Are we saying that if Pegwell Bay was dropped in class next time he needed key horse support, but if he went up in class as a winner he didn't? And is that really what VDW is saying?

I know Philodantes is not in the outstanding or certainties categories you are currently looking at JennyK JennyK but to my reading of "a string of good things" I think it's safe to say they were all horses VDW was prepared to wager on. First Division, Merce Cunningham and Billet were certainly not described as good things by VDW hence as he said they didn't have him reaching for his wallet.

Philodantes despite there being a significant non runner was not even in the 3 most consistent of the 5 remaining runners. The Erin figure is only 4th of the 5 too. However, he was one of the 3 highest last class runners as he was in all 3 of his last runs compared to the field's last 3 runs. He also had the highest winning class run of the 5 runners from the last 3 runs and at the same distance as the Goodwood race.

His last race in higher class was won by a horse who had been 4th LTO in lower class when 9/4 2nd fav having previously won the race before.
The last race at Ascot was also a different longer distance of 1m 4f as opposed to the 1m 2f Philodantes won over in class 78 (again much higher than 39 for Goodwood). He also led over 2f out at Ascot.

The 2nd last race when winning at Espom over 1m 2f was beating two of the Goodwood runners in Effulgence and Doogali. Effulgence was giving weight to Philodantes and was now 7 lb better off at Goodwood for 4 lengths. Doogali was in 3rd receiving a lot of weight from Philodantes and had won since, but the jockey's claim offset the extra weight to a degree. Still difficult to see a reversal from that horse. Effulgence had arrived at Epsom on a 4th in higher class than that race though beaten around 13 lengths and at 25/1.

As I've said before I don't think the Ascot result was diminished by St Briavels winning it, given it had been just 9/4 4 days earlier and never put into the race. And the real key horses at Goodwood were the 2 horses who had finished at least 4 lengths behind Philodantes in his 2nd last race over the same distance and in a much higher value race.

The key horse idea is valid but is it really bound by tight rules on prev placing and position in the market?
Because it seems to me that being methodical explains why horses who were not one of the 3 most consistent in a 5 runner race are still presented as good things or horses who ran down the field despite having by far the best form in the race can be talked of as good things and examples of what was on offer using the same method as Little Owl and Sunset Cristo ie Ekbalco. Methodical is not being bound by rules but guidelines open to interpretation.

And interesting how the next week's selections were described in the Spells It All Out letter "There is always another day and the week following, Saturday, March 14, provided two more good things in Ekbalco won 8/1 and Justafancy won 4/1."

As far as I can recall, the only horse VDW described as a good thing but said it was NOT a bet was One In A Million due to "not at the price" which was odds on.

My long term feeling on the key horse issue and the Roushayd races is that VDW seemed to be showing us how to assess a race's likely outcome but also show us the warning signs of when not to put money on just a likely winner. I mean had Billet not won the Northern Dancer at Epsom and say a horse VDW didn't even mention in his appraisal Rambo Dancer won it instead, how would that have changed Roushayd's performance or chances next time out in a lower class race? Roushayd was 3rd in the betting at Haydock. The data on class droppers shows that was probably more significant.
 
Re Pegwell Bay, Tufnel Tufnel, I was referring solely to his entitlement to consistent class/form status in the Mackeson.

re "good things" not backed, Kenlis is to my mind the most important.

re the logic of Lee's observation about key horses with class droppers, it may seem overly simplistic but I think it has the same basic "common sense" as VDW's penchant for winners lto when considering risers.

With risers, ie horses going up in class as VDW saw it via the win prize money value, VDW's common sense view seemed to be why should horse who can't win a class X be expected to win a class X+ next time out? VDW knew there were convincing reasons why some horses would indeed do just that, and we learn some of them from his writing and others from his examples. But as a basic proposition it makes sense to me.

With droppers, they are tackling lower class races, again on win prize money terms, than their most recent ones. Roushayd, beaten around 9.5l in a class 227 and now running in a class 170 is the obvious example. How do we know that he, or any other class dropper, is likely to win? First by his performance in the most recent race and second by whether that race was a good one, which for VDW seems to have meant being won by a horse among those the market expected would win it. Obviously not infallible, but makes sense to me and although in current races it means one misses the occasional winner, time and again it keeps one off losers, Gold Star Hero in the Catterick Dash being just the latest.

Easily the most interesting race of the week, given my focus on sprint handicaps, but I couldn't even sort out the class/form horse. Mainly because I could not decide whether Toca Madera was a consistent horse in VDW's terms, but also because all the other possibilities were, from my take on VDW, also flawed:

Gold Star Hero, for the key horse reason, as per my pre-race post,

Baker Blue not in my view a consistent horse, though like Toca Madera, not easy to assess with certainty,

Ziggys Triton a consistent "form" horse but likely to be outclassed yesterday,

Lexington Blitz, a horse with "less obvious form", but whom I [wrongly] thought would struggle off 94.

When looking at each, as always VDW's words "no element of a gamble should be allowed to creep in" form the context (though, as with many of his words, that advice should not be taken literally, but as he intended them).

Leodis Leodis and I reached similar conclusions about not betting on the race, though for different reasons.
 
Last edited:
Re Pegwell Bay, Tufnel Tufnel, I was referring solely to his entitlement to consistent class/form status in the Mackeson.

re "good things" not backed, Kenlis is to my mind the most important.

re the logic of Lee's observation about key horses with class droppers, it may seem overly simplistic but I think it has the same basic "common sense" as VDW's penchant for winners lto when considering risers.

With risers, ie horses going up in class as VDW saw it via the win prize money value, VDW's common sense view seemed to be why should horse who can't win a class X be expected to win a class X+ next time out? VDW knew there were convincing reasons why some horses would indeed do just that, and we learn some of them from his writing and others from his examples. But as a basic proposition it makes sense to me.

With droppers, they are tackling lower class races, again on win prize money terms, than their most recent ones. Roushayd, beaten around 9.5l in a class 227 and now running in a class 170 is the obvious example. How do we know that he, or any other class dropper, is likely to win? First by his performance in the most recent race and second by whether that race was a good one, which for VDW seems to have meant being won by a horse among those the market expected would win it. Obviously not infallible, but makes sense to me and although in current races it means one misses the occasional winner, time and again it keeps one off losers, Gold Star Hero in the Catterick Dash being just the latest.

Easily the most interesting race of the week, given my focus on sprint handicaps, but I couldn't even sort out the class/form horse. Mainly because I could not decide whether Toca Madera was a consistent horse in VDW's terms, but also because all the other possibilities were, from my take on VDW, also flawed:

Gold Star Hero, for the key horse reason, as per my pre-race post,

Baker Blue not in my view a consistent horse, though like Toca Madera, not easy to assess with certainty,

Ziggys Triton a consistent "form" horse but likely to be outclassed yesterday,

Lexington Blitz, a horse with "less obvious form", but whom I [wrongly] thought would struggle off 94.

When looking at each, as always VDW's words "no element of a gamble should be allowed to creep in" form the context (though, as with many of his words, that advice should not be taken literally, but as he intended them).

Leodis Leodis and I reached similar conclusions about not betting on the race, though for different reasons.
The way in which VDW laid out each of the races in Roushayd’s 1988 season was the full finishing order but showing previous run of each runner in a simple class, distance and finishing position format. It presented an overview of where each runner had come from. Similar to how he laid out Pegwell Bay’s race before it took place so in race card order but also showing class and distance for each runner’s last 3 races and finishing positions left in the last 6 form placings in the traditional racecard manner.

And he clearly said “in practice every horse receives the same attention” so had he laid out the previous 3 runs for every runner in each of Roushayd’s races in the same manner as he did for Roushayd it would have shown a lot of such overviews for previous races and taken a much greater number of pages than the relatively short booklets that were published. So that is the scale of the task in assessing each runner’s form.

VDW clarified that the class of race is different from the class of horses engaged. And also highlighted the difference between class of races a horse runs in and their class as horses.

So from that I deduce that the ability rating and the class of races a horse runs in are used to add another measure to how good a race was. We see the class rating for the race but within the race we the class of horses engaged through both their ability rating and their previous runs using the same set of measures.

Abathatc was on a list for VDW. When the horse was 3rd in pretty much identical races in terms of class/prize value to the race VDW said he was backed in, it was to 2 horses who both finished 10th last time out and one of them in a lowly class 27 race. They were however at the fore of a market that started at 6/1 co favs. But their previous runs showed up badly in the overview of the race.

However when you look at the next race where both the winner and the third re opposed we suddenly have 2 horses who showed form last time out in a same class race and the market expectation support but one of the horses had a big turnaround in the weights.

This is why I think VDW saw this as a class drop despite the difference in prize money being less than the cost of tank of fuel these days. In the former race class and form was in short supply as far as last runs went. But in the race where Abathatc won there were 2 horses who stood out in terms of class of last race and positions in that race.

Going back to the previous runs of the LTO race didn’t paint a great picture though which is presumably why he didn’t back Abathatc then.
 
Several Handicap Hurdle races today and after yesterday's complete diversion from the path of fundamentals to the method where I ignored or overlooked certain factors that are important in favour of other factors that perhaps are not so important. A particularly bad day to fall into that trap given the amount of jumps racing on offer.

There are certain criteria that show up in the 6 VDW examples and also many of his other bets in other methods than might be coincidence or actually have a big significance. I was pondering how many VDW handicap examples that he gave were for horses sat in the middle of the weights? I'm sure I looked into it but possibly stalled on his very first handicap example Celtic Pleasure. But it is noticeable that many of his examples where the horse was low in the weights were for horses who were placed LTO. Where as many of his examples who had finished out of the frame LTO were amongst the top few weights. In fact I can't think of a handicap example he gave who was at the foot of the weights that did not finish in the frame LTO.

Anyway on to today's findings.

Sedgefield 3:50 Curious Mrs Fox and Clean Getaway
Sedgefield 4:20 Brosna Town and Williethebuilder

Limerick 3:00 Boston Rajj, Beckistine and Jaadil are the 3 probables but I'm going to leave them as certain things don't quite fit for all of them.

The 3:30 event is basically an amateur race and I wouldn't want to try and split the top weight and the bottom weight at the prices. Whilst I suspect Duce Bigalow's weight pull will be enough, given the connections of the Haveanothertry and the who the race is in memory of I also suspect we will see a big performance from that horse also. Either way it's not a race I think VDW would have included in the HH method.

So I'll stick with my dutch bets at Sedgefield and hopefully get things back on track. Presuming I'm on the right path now.
 
Hi Tufnel Tufnel

Re”In the Pegwell Bay letter VDW commented on the result with "The result makes it appear he is capable of winning again before long."

Perhaps he said that because the prize money of 22K would have pushed his ability rating higher than the ability ratings of the horses that he beat . Just a thought and not a definite conclusion
 
At Leopardstown I'm backing 3 for a book in the 4:42 Sky Captain, Truth Be Told and Thatwilldoso.
All 3 are class dropping.

Best of luck to anyone having a go today.
 
Back
Top