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VDW Just a few thoughts VDW or otherwise.

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Very interesting posts Mtoto and Chesham!

Pegwell Bay beat Smar Tar as
2-1 Fav, S.T was 10-1.

Next race, the Mackleson, Pegwell Bay was fancied in the market S.T was not.

V.D.W said nothing suggests a reversal.
Same ground, distance and also when P.B beat S.T Lto, S.T was dropping from class 146 in which he won.

Why could there be a turn around, S.T had a higher ability rating but under the same conditions he could not beat P.B.

Roushayd beaten by the Fav being rose in class, his odds also went up, in the Newton cup, he dropped in class and his odds dropped to 6-1.

All very interesting.......

Take care
Paul.
 
Lee

What a horse does at the end of a race


VDW's method of gauging one performance against another, from the distance, is the key.


correct - there is only one way to judge the performance in closing stages of a race, by the opposition that are also competing at this stage of the race.


The final part of the race is where one should be focusing their attention in order to be able to compare one performance against another. VDW gave more away in Systematic Betting in order that the reader could go on evaluate horses that have competed above their class level.

Good Luck

Chesham
 
Similar to the Braashee/Cossack Guard weight turn around, if you can answer the question – you’ve cracked it!

Chesham,

Have to say this is where I get VERY confused the weight turn around here like in the Baronet example favours the horse that WASN'T selected. So how can the weight be a factor?

You are quite correct Braashee wouldn't have made my d/base and neither would Roushayd, but it's my d/base and it works/measures class using something that wasn't readily available available to VDW. I can't check but I'm not sure where Prominent King stood using the method I'm using now. When working the old examples I do use prize money as the measurement for class.

On a count I made it 119 days racing on the seven tracks VDW said use, 119*2 is plenty/too many possible races to keep track off.

This isn't going to change either of our minds about the use/worth of market one way or the other You think it is a plus and I can't find any proof of the plus when looking at my results. Yes, some do have the short priced horses finishing close but just as many don't.

Be Lucky
 
The only thing I can think with the weight movements is the movement of class.

Braashee beat Cossack Guard stepping up in prize and weight, on level weights, C.G was dropping in class, up in weight and could not beat him.

Next time out they both moved up in class, Braashee carried the same weight pretty much but had already beaten Cossack with the same handicap?
 
RE Have to say this is where I get VERY confused the weight turn around

Lee & Top Dirham

LTO VW carried 8-7 and when he met TD carried 9-10 an increase of 17lbs

TD LTO Carried 9-5 and when he met TD Carried 8-8 = 11lbs less

Braashee LTO 9-5 and Ascot Race 9-4 alb less


Using your method (To Agori Mou)and Timeform Speed


TD best Performance




ASCOT Thursday, 21 June 2001 Races 1, 3 and 5: FIRM Remainder: GOOD to FIRM

5.30 Britannia Stakes (Handicap) (B) (Turf) 1m

£35,750 0-105 (3yo c+g)


Timeform Speed 99 off a BHA = 88


Handicap mark of top weight 101


19/07/04 BHA = 70 ( 18 Lbs lower BHA than best Performance) Handicap Mark of Top Weight 88 (11lbs Lower Race Class than the Race Class of Best Performance)


VW Best Performance

AYR Saturday, 20 September 2003 GOOD to FIRM

2.55 Tote Ayrshire Handicap (C) (Turf) 1m

£18,980 0-100 (3yo+)

Timeform Speed 93 Off BHA 83

Handicap mark of top weight 94


19/07/04 BHA = 88 (8lbs higher BHA than Best Performance) & 6lbs lower race Class than Best Performance

Good Luck

Chesham
 
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Hi Mtoto

RE On a count I made it 119 days racing on the seven tracks VDW said use, 119*2 is plenty/too many possible races to keep track off.

How many of those 119 X 2 would have met the Speed Fig Requirement that you think follows on when adding horses to the List from the present season of the year that VDW was covering. Quote that you reminded me of
Using the flat speed figures for 1987 three-year-olds and upwards. The first horse of note in the alphabetical list was Abathatc with a speed figure of 81 over 5 furlongs at York on yielding going."
Further down the same page he then goes on to say "It is also practical to increase the list from the current season's running and why not start with the first meeting of the 1988 season at Doncaster.

Why use the Returned SP must = top three, if it was not important, surely he could have used another filter if it was a case of reducing the number of qualifiers for the list.

With the Roushayd last three race profile why did VDW bother to include the SP of the Winner from those 3 races, VDW never wrote anything just for the sake of it. The price of the winner of those 3 races according to your thinking adds nothing to the form, so why did VDW feel the need to include that data ????

RE You are quite correct Braashee wouldn't have made my d/base and neither would Roushayd, but it's my d/base and it works/measures class using something that wasn't readily available available to VDW.

Accepted and I think that your method of measuring Ability is sound, but surely anything which may increase your Win Strike Rate and allow you to safely move on from Win and Loaded Place with more confidence. You have hit some big price winners where the Win part of the bet could have maximised profits, but was underfunded Drumshambo looks the best way to show a profit so a small win loaded place.

LTO Race for Drumshambo was won by the 2nd fav and Fav was 2nd, the previous two races were won by the Fav.

I presume that you are coming off Handicap mark of top weight 152 in the Warwick Race for Drumshambo's Abilty Rating, here the favourite won. Who LTO was in a race won by
Dynaste, Odds on Favourite who had won his previous race when Odds on Fav.

VDW's Platform require the user to look backwards with regards Consistent Form, Class and to form an opinion of capability, Probability is the odds about an event past or future, then is it not possible that if the probility of a past race has worked out as it should have before the race was run, then providing the class of competitor is sound, the Form from that event is most reliable. I have already demonstrated with Ten Year Stats with the best race class that the SP (Probability) of past events does appear to be a Positve when looking at the Probability of a future event.

With weather forecasting, artificial intelligent computer program's are constantly testing the probability from past probability that the programme had previously churned out. bayes theorem uses the likelihood values of past events.

VDW slipped in something like "the odds are it" within one of his lines and something about being overlooked. The method that you use was established from a past race that To Agori Mou ran in, what was the Probility of the horse that won? Where To Agori earned his Abilty Rating.



Good Luck

Chesham
 
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Chesham,

Have to say I do find this discussion quite interesting and it is nice to see it being discussed so openly. Here I must say I'm not just trying to be awkward and/or argumentative for the sake of it. I have genuinely looked at several different ways to confirm the strength of the form, and because of this discussion I have looked at the market position of the horses that finished close up. Have to say along with several other factors like winners, consistent horses, well rated horses based on my figures and OR's I can't find anything that consistently improves my profits.

The one stand out thing is taking the form from a true run race, and using that form when a horse runs in a lower or the same class. I can see by using one/some of the elements checked I could cut down the bets, but at what price? I have races on my d/bases who's form I have used to find many winners that fail using the market position and/or form aspects. If you or anyone could tell me in advance which elements from which races would work in the race before I make my selection I would jump at it. Until that happens I'm stuck with my race reading, but have to say I am working on trying to find a way of cutting out the mistakes.

Re this weight thing, as I don't even look at weight I do find it confusing a while I can see some of what you explained I'm still confused about Brashness. Yes I can see he carried one pound less in that race, but by the same token Cossack Guard carried eight pounds less. Under normal circumstances doesn't that give Cossack Guard the advantage to turn around a defeat of a head? Digging out a few of my old notes I still think Brashness. was the selection because he had shown improvement based on s/f in a higher class and was now the only horse in the race with that qualification.

Very surprised on digging out the old notes I found they were in Danny's hand writing, could have done without that o_O

Be Lucky
 
Hi Mtoto

When looking at Beppo's Post on the Peach Forum he was responding to Danny, saying that he would only back a few horses from the Silver Lining. In those days I did not know you as you did not post on the Peach Forum, but Danny was always saying I have asked the 'Old Man' when posting about a subject or a race. I always thought it was nice that he valued your opinion and shared the same passion for the VDW debate.

With regards Braashee, Lee seemed to indicate that the SP for their last meeting was also a positive for Braashee and a negative for Cossack Guard , when stepping up in class at Ascot

Today there is a similar situation where two horses who have met before meet again Hadrian's Approach was in a Kempton race where Dynaste 8/13fav won, and Hadrians Approach was 2nd, 12/1SP and Kings Theatre 25/1 Pulled up both carried 11-7.

LTO Hadrians Approach carried 11-10 and today 11-6 (The winner had just won 32K Handicap and HA gave away 12 lbs

TRW 157 161 162 164 151 (Av 159) HA is on an Adjusted Tmeform rating of 165, so rated above the past winners of this race, already.

King's Theatre LTO carried 11-8 and today 11-9 Won LTO but possibly a lucky win, with the market leaders crashing out.

Even though Nicky Henderson has won this race with some decent sorts, so looks like he is trying again, at the odds not a bet `i would want to take in a NH Race, especially as I have not followed NH races for a long time, but interesting to see from the HA and KT theory

Good Luck

Chesham
 
Hi all!
Surely the weight turn around with Braashee and Cossack Guard is to do with the class movements and what happened in the final 2f.

Cossack Guard dropping in class was out in front from 3f out, up till 1f out,Braashee moved up in class yet managed to make headway from 2f out and win.

If the lengths are measured in lbs, did he not already make up the weight difference in ground covered to make headway and take over?

Take care
Paul.
 
Hi all!
Surely the weight turn around with Braashee and Cossack Guard is to do with the class movements and what happened in the final 2f.

Cossack Guard dropping in class was out in front from 3f out, up till 1f out,Braashee moved up in class yet managed to make headway from 2f out and win.

If the lengths are measured in lbs, did he not already make up the weight difference in ground covered to make headway and take over?

Take care
Paul.

Hi Paul

I covered that angle has already on this thread

Braashee

Note the breeding Angle A C Stewart (Trainer had trained Ghariba out of the same dam, winning a grp 3. The Breeder used Sadlers Wells the dam for Braashee, a Sire with a better stamina Progeny

Now onto the Form of Braashee

Won a maiden 8/13 Fav Carried 8-11 and then pushed up in class where he met Cossack Gaurd on Level Weights, this was the first time that the Official Handicapper had chance to see if he had got his mark correct, remember that the Official Handicapper only had maiden form and the average OR of winners of previous type maiden races at that course etc

Cossack Gaurd was dropping in class from 0-115 to 0-110 and up in weight, but level with Braashee

What the horse does at the 2f from home marker
Held up, headway over 2f out, led over 1f out, pushed out

Indicates that Braashee was having to close the Gap and took over as pace leader 1f from home (Note having an easy lead from the front, effort was needed to get to the lead, pushed out also indicates that the horse was not suffering from a build up of lactic acid for the effort and could have more in the locker.

3rd straight, led over 3f out until over 1f out, ran on well

indicates that CG was already in the lead at the 3 F marker and held that lead until passed by Braashee 1 F out, the energy reserves had run out and managed to run on behind Braashee but not enough energy to mount a challenge.

To me Coassack Guard was unable to beat Braashee in a lower class ceiling so why would he turn the form around in a higher class ceiling at Ascot. even with a weight advantage. The higher the class the more sustained pace there usually is within the race, no hiding place to get a breather in before making the effort to maintain the pace for a long as possible, remembering that all horses are slowing down over the final furlong, some less than others.


Braashee when he met CG went up in Class and Weight and then carried albs less weight for the next rise in class.

Good Luck

Chesham
 
Hi Chesham,
What I do not understand is how one would "Crack it" with this knowledge,

How would you apply it to each race today?

I would love to be able to speak to Lee about this!

How does this fit in with the method?

I am going to try and aquire the form books and look at the examples he gave.
 
Hi Paul

I think Lee said all he was going to say on his way of working VDW, so probably not answer anymore than he has. You have seen the Excel Sheets of his selections and there are some common Factors that you have observed. We all have our own methods of selection and I am not obsessed with trying to replicate Lee's method, for one I don't keep lists (Although I have done in the past) and Lee worked off lists.

Mtoto has is own method which works for him and easy enough with some judgement to add horse to a data base similar to Mtoto. But the one thing that Mtoto has is experience with is reading form and having a good idea when one of his Top three on his Ability rating, have the credentials to win the race that he is looking at. I would imagine that Lee is the same, he said that he could show someone in about two paragraphs but that they still might not get the same results as him(I presume because they would choose the wrong races to back in)

Personally I always learn something from reading the ideas of others, without having to work in exactly the same way. If something makes sense to me then I may use that if it seems to apply to a race that I am analysing.

Good Luck

Chesham
 
Nice and very true post Chesham!

I think there are people here to learn
from, like both yourself and Mtoto,Rob etc....

Take care
Paul.
 
Nice and very true post Chesham!

I think there are people here to learn
from, like both yourself and Mtoto,Rob etc....

Take care
Paul.

Hi Paul

On this forum I think we are all learning and exploring new ideas all the time, I am great believer in surrounding yourself with positive people and there is an abundance of them on here. Where else can you get free ratings that cater for nearly every taste and others working on new ideas for ratings

Good Luck

Chesham
 
I think Lee said all he was going to say on his way of working VDW, so probably not answer anymore than he has.

Paul,

I think the above sums it up very well. I have no idea what happened with Lee, he was a member of a private forum and suddenly stopped posting.
From memory his last post mentioned an addition to his family and he didn't now have time to contribute. As Cheshem said you don't need form books to check Lee's selection as they are all on the Racing Post site.

Chesham,

Have to say I'm still having problems with weight. On forums, and listening to to racing pundits much is often made of a few pounds one way or the other bringing horse to together form wise, if this is correct and VDW did think weight was important why would he ignore a 7lb pull? I'm also still having problems with Lee's reply about the weight being the answer to the selection of Braashee. Personally presented with that scenario I would take the winner to confirm the form regardless of a weight turn around, unless there were exceptional circumstances.

Danny is a great lose as he was very quick with figures, and was someone I could bounce ideas off. Like all young men he was always in a hurry and his life style and betting were always a worry to an old foggy like me. At times he would say such and such is a short priced favourite do you think he can win this? The first couple of times I said no and next thing I know the account has shot up because he has laid the horse for silly amounts. If I said anything he just laughed and said I (he) needed the money even if I didn't. There again I wasn't following the English cricket team all round the world.

Contrary to popular belief I don't just ignore things I don't understand. While I do agree probability is part of the method, and the elements you talk about with the market defiantly do reflect probability, didn't VDW give us another set of probabilities? Why are these being ignored?

It has crossed my mind that you and possibly others don't feel comfortable discussing in detail too much on this blog as it is open to all. Do you or anyone else think there would be a better response if it was moved to the inner sanctum? I have noticed a couple people who are keen on VDW haven't commented one way or the other on any of the discussions. Just a thought.

My workings for the big race today are as follows but there is nothing there for me today!!

1 Cue Card 2 William's Wishes 3 Module

Module is a horse I have earmarked to look out for this season but I don't think he is ready to take on these yet.

Be Lucky
 
Hi Mtoto

The race that you mentioned today was one of the Stepping Stones for Travdo, which was a horse thatVDW mentioned in the Jock Bingham Book, so might be worth keep that in mind to see where todays winners goes next. Somersby was in this race in 2011 and needed the run.

Travado

Peterborough Chase (Class A) Grade 1993
LTO Race = Plymouth Gin Haldon Gold Challenge Cup Chase

Peterborough Chase (Class A) Grade 2 21/11/95
LTO Race Plymouth Gin Haldon Gold Challenge Cup Chase

Ever Smile
Philip Barnard Memorial Conditional Jockeys´ Handicap Hurdle 1993 finished 5th
Philip Barnard Memorial Conditional Jockeys´ Handicap Hurdle (Class E) 1996 won

Valiant warrior

« 2:30 » Newcastle Building Society Handicap Chase (Class B)
(Class 2) (0-140, 5yo+) 2m4f Good To Soft 16 fences 18th Feb 1995 finished 2nd

« 3:00 » Newcastle Building Society Handicap Chase (Class B)
(Class 2) (0-140, 5yo+) 2m4f Good To Soft 14 fences 2 omitted, 1996 won

Good Luck

Chesham
 
I agree that Cue Card is the class act Mtoto. These sort of races are not my cup of tea - dare I mention the weight LOL. It has been supported in the market, but like you I am not interested in betting in this race.
 
I had to split my post, so as not to mention Cue Card after the race.;)

The 3-50 Exeter is interesting. There is a relative novice Gas Line Boy that caught my attention, but it has only had one run over fences and it blundered the first and hit 3 and 4, so not one to have faith in at the moment. In its last race it had a lower weight and the top rated was 136 today the top is 130, but it carries a stone more in actual weight. Another reason to leave this one and just see how it pans out. The horse that won its last race seems to be better than a lot of these mind, as it went on to come second in a 12K race at Cheltenham.
 
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