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The Ultimate Wheil of Fortune - "From Start to Finish", "Entering the Straight"

When I first came across the VDW method in the SCHP many moons ago, along with a definition of how best to use the method, I, along with many others thought it was the answer to finding a winner of a race. Todays' thinking is, it's a starting point that can find a range of winners/losers within a race for backing/laying purposes.

1. Specialisation (not necessarily the high prize money races, ones with exposable form)
2. A way of giving each runner a rating (Ability Rating-AR) that can be measured against other runners.
3. Combining the rating (AR) with other conditions/ratings to produce an overall rating in relation to the race of the day and its' conditions.
4. Creating a tissue price based on the overall rating to find the ones that are under-rated/over-rated.

The (AR) will change when a runner wins, but the overall rating is fluid and dependant on the race conditions of the day.
ie: Going/Course/Distance/Class/Jockey/Weight/Speed/Current Form compared to previous form/Racing Style/Betting F/C position

Is this now a system rather than a method? If it's rateable before and after a race, then I would say yes.
 
mick mick

Looking through the Gummy archive material, so far the most interesting poster I've found, because of his success with selections posted before the races concerned, is Lee. He gave NH and Flat selections, handicap and non handicap, and on the Flat selections at all distances from 7f to 16f. In fact, the only type of selection I've yet to spot is a sprint handicap, which is not so say there aren't any, just none in the posts I've seen so far.

Lee's posts, at least the ones I've read so far, don't give much detail as to precisely how he arrived at his selections though he clearly saw himself as following VDW.
 
JennyK JennyK i have no personal knowledge of Lee but do recall another member quoting him along the lines of he could provide the answers in a couple of sentences but what would be the point because people would still not get it............I have to say i found this a rather strange attitude, but if he was at least doing some pre race posting then fair dues to him for that, because it has been my experience that those who claim to know the most are the least included to do so. !

Posting pre race is certainly not the be all, but for those who consistently talk the talk there comes a time when this is a need. VDW felt otherwise or chose to ignore and i guess some of his disciples are only following there master in this respect but it seldom ends well. !
 
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DuckandDive DuckandDive

The distinction between a system and a method is surely a matter of when the judgements are made.

Recently, mick mick posted to the effect that someone who had studied the results of his selections he had concluded that one should avoid his Tuesday ones (or possibly the other way round, I can't remember). That can be viewed as a system. A judgement has been made - Mick's selections are poor on Tuesdays - and the system rule would then be simple - back Mick's selections on any day except Tuesdays. And if one did, without giving any further consideration to the individual selections, that would be a system.

VDW's suggestion was to take the first five, or six with handicaps, from the betting forecast to help narrow the field. If that, and similar suggestions about consistency and ability rankings, are followed strictly, and selections are horses which meet all such requirements, without any further thought, that would be a system, because all the judgements are made prior to looking at the race. With the same explicit rules, then anyone following them acccurately would get the same selection.

It it is quite clear - for example from the two paragraphs immediately under the Little Owl race in the "Spells It All Out" article - that that was not what VDW was doing or recommending. Yes, he offered a (reasonably) sysematic way of creating an initial numerical picture, as per the tables in the "Spells It All Out" article, but also made clear that there were many more judgements to be made, on the evidence in respect of each runner. Then the approach is a methodical one, not a system.
 
Here’s Lees post if you haven’t seen it JennyK JennyK

I hope you’re well? If my memory serves me correct I believe the last time we spoke you were in hospital, or had just been discharged? I’ve had a quick look through this thread and it’s quite astounding that VDW is still being discussed at length. It’s such a long time since Matt (Guest), you, and myself were thrashing out the very same subject in that yahoo ‘vdw methodology’ group all those years ago. I’m surprised not to see Fulham on here?

Anyway, the betting market is just another important part of form. The odds that a horse starts at is just another rating. But in my experience, it's an extremely accurate one when used in conjunction with everything else; it's a by-product of some knowledgeable opinion. I believe, after extensive research that it was part of VDW’s 2nd numerical picture and if one implements the odds in conjunction with a horses placing’s they will not fail to increase their strike rate and profitability.

Imagine our selection, Horse A, being beaten in to 2nd place last time out ‘making headway 2 furlongs out, staying on final in the final furlong’ beaten by the favourite Horse B. Horse B was coming from a higher class race where it finished a close 3rd, but it was giving bags of weight to the winner Horse C. Horse C was favourite to win the race. Horse C was coming from a lower class race and finished a close 2nd, and was 2nd favourite. The race was won by the favourite.

This part of Horse A’s form stands up. Was a second place last time out justifiable? Yes is the answer in this case and we don't have to go back very far to get the answer, we just have to look what Horse A beat or was beaten by. Sometimes we have to go back further in to the form book until we reach the answer, but it is there every time one way or another.

If people are interested they should run this exercise on all the horses mentioned as winners in Systematic betting. Keep in mind a rating between 1 and 3 for both placing and position in the market. Go back as far as you can checking what each horse beat or was beaten by. If the horse in question was 3rd ask if that position was justified based on the form of the horse that finished 1st. As soon as the position is justified move on until the horses recent form has been confirmed. I guarantee that this little exercise will be enlightening.

There are obviously infinite permutations but where a horse finishes anything other than first in its most recent races (normally 3 is enough) we should ask if its finishing position was justified.

Of course the above needs balancing with class, but the good ones stand out like sore thumbs.

It’s all down to temperament and the odds ;-) we’re simply attempting to stack the odds in firmly in our favour.

Good luck all, hope this post helps a little.

Lee
 
The system or method question is an interesting topic. I feel some positive envy for those who make it pay via a pure system approach. They will have needed to put effort into creating a profitable one but the implementation absolves them of any final call decisions and it is these which create the difficulties for the method user but also prove the straightener. ?

A few years back on another part of this forum i live proofed a system i had created for a whole season. It did very well indeed better than my own bets during the same period, but left to my own devices i would not have backed some of the qualifiers and these often turned out to include the bigger priced winners which where the foundation of the profits. There must be some kind of lesson to be learnt from this. ?

Is there a happy medium between the two. ? When profiling a horse found via my ratings i do use filters both positive and negative as an aide but the majority of these will be deployed flexibly in respect that i will bet against negative ones if i still like my chances on balance. For myself there are no easy answers and this is accepted as being part of the price. !
 
The distinction between a system and a method is surely a matter of when the judgements are made.

Yep, I can see that.

If a rating can be cobbled together from a methodology like VDW, then I would say it's more systematic as a numerical picture is produced and can be input into excel. After review, if a judgement is made that Tuesday is a bad day, that can systemised on the calendar to pop up as a reminder. that today/tomorrow is Tuesday.

Much of what VDW has written, it seems, can be rated. Reckon it's then a question of how each group is weighted to produce the best performance(s).
 
formtheory formtheory

Thank you. I'd not seen that post before. Presumably, from OnTheNod OnTheNod's post, that was his only one.

I am much more inclined to run the exercise he suggests on Lee's own Flat handicap suggestions that the "Systematic Betting" ones. I've had a look at a couple of them and will now try what he suggested with them and the others.

I've also had an email saying Lee sometimes posted on the Racing Forum and put one pre-race selection up there. Something else to pursue in due course.
 
Is there a happy medium between the two. ? When profiling a horse found via my ratings i do use filters both positive and negative as an aide but the majority of these will be deployed flexibly in respect that i will bet against negative ones if i still like my chances on balance. For myself there are no easy answers and this is accepted as being part of the price. !

I'd admit it would be near impossible to rate your intellection and input into excel.

The judgement, good or poor, can also be influenced by other factors on the day. Are you on a losing run? Bad nights sleep? Family emergency?
 
The odds that a horse starts at is just another rating. But in my experience, it's an extremely accurate one when used in conjunction with everything else; it's a by-product of some knowledgeable opinion.

This reminded me of Bill Benters' epiphany when it was included in his burgeoning database, re-run the data and hey presto the rest is history.

The last line on paragraph 4 "understand what other factors" were the Hong Kong SP's odds input.

benter.png
 
formtheory formtheory

My notes on the VDW examples enable me to check Lee's propositions easily and they are correct. In Lee's terms, almost all VDW's examples have hugely consistent form.

I've looked at three of Lee's Flat handicap selections this afternoon, Top Dirham, Double Vodka and Lochbuie, and they conform, too.

There is one phrase near the end of Lee's post that I think is crucial and needs to be kept at the forefront of one's mind:

"Of course the above needs balancing with class."

I think Lee probably meant bear class in mind throughout, ie noting whether in a horse's last three runs it was going up or down in class compared with the current race, but also when trying to answer the question he suggests we pose, "where a horse finishes anything other than first in its most recent races (normally 3 is enough) we should ask if its finishing position was justified".

Of Lee's three examples I've mentioned, Double Vodka is perhaps the one that best illustrates what I think he was saying.

DV came 7th lto, with the winner of that race, Lets Roll, 3rd favourite. In his previous race Lets Roll had finished third to the favourite, Majorca, whom in his previous race had won as 2nd favourite. But the clincher, I suspect, for Lee was the race classes.

The race for which Lee selected DV was a class 57. The race in which, lto, he had finished 7th, was a class 144, and the winner of that, Lets Roll, had peviously finshed third in a class 120. Clearly, Lee thought that DV's 7th, beaten less than 3l in a mile race, given the winner and the winner's "previous" was plenty good enough for a class 57. And in DV's second and third last races, neither of which he won, one can also trace a decent line of form. In his second last, DV was in fourth place, behind Lets Roll in third, in the race Majorca won. In his third last race, DV came 2nd to Riley Boys, who in his previous race had finished second to the horse he had been in the race before that by a short head.

I think anyone wanting to move on from what I've shorthanded as VDW101 should find the post by Lee you've re-posted extremely useful.
 
Good morning all i have just posted the below elsewhere and its certainly not a case of so good he shows it twice but rather that aspects of the subject have already been mentioned on this thread. Incidentally my possible bet for Fri is Outrun The Storm and under a gross 9-9 he passes the test and i feel fairly happy that if beaten the weight will not be the cause.

It was over a year ago that i decided to become more flexible Re backing horses under big weights, and on balance its proved a good call. Prior to this my red flag was raised for any above 9-4 and while i would still occasionally back one of these it was generally a reluctant decision. My change of heart was mostly down to increasing official top weights with 10-2 now often the norm.

I still believe that some horses object to weight more so than others and if correct then this aspect can sabotage a positive rating and profile. This objection might be down to physical size or attitude. Whatever i need proven weight carrying ability to enable backing one, and as ever this causes complications.

My first call is to look at the highest weight the animal has won under and then view the runs above this and occasionally this does tell a useful story, but it is the more frequent inbetweeners which cause the problems with a good run in defeat under a big weight being one example, was it the weight which was the cause of failing to win or might there be a different and valid explanation.

For myself sorting this remains a work in progress and realistically this will always be so, but the positive is that during the past year my understanding of this topic has improved a little. I have only one inflexible filter to date which is that i will not go above 9-13 and while its possible that HRB members will now post showing that the 10-0 > 10-4 range are profitable i can live with this because when contemplating risking my wedge comfort zones play a part and those last five pounds are still outside of mine. !
 
JennyK JennyK

I don't know how involved you intend to be in looking at Lee's selections and posts, but thought you should be aware of this (which I forgot I had in my archive) as I feel it may add some useful context for you.

I have it titled as "Lee's Final Post - don't know which message board it was on (might even have been his final posting on this message board, but I'm not sure).

I'm not for one minute trying to put you off looking at his examples - as far as I'm concerned he has walked the walk in posting a succession of winning selections at decent prices, so when he says there is something in the VDW method that works for him, I believe that to be true and he has more than satisfactorily evidenced this.

Anyway, this is what he had to say........

"With some of the recent happenings that have gone on I now feel that the time has arrived to draw a conclusion to my involvement within the group.

Before I do finally depart however I would like to set a few things straight. This will ease my conscience as much as anything else, and will hopefully bring into disrepute some of the suggestions I have made in the past regarding VDW, and set a few people on the right track. This is because I havent been 100% honest, 100% of the time. However, in my defence this was only because I was trying to stimulate some discussion in the right areas by way of counter-conversation. But unfortunately this, in hindsight, was a poor tactic and the discussion from others, where it mattered, was not forthcoming.

This though was probably a blessing in disguise, as you can always rely on someone to spoil the party.

I got involved with trying to crack VDW about 10 years ago; I was a desperate gambler at the time when someone who I greatly respected told me that there might be something in it if I looked hard enough. It took around 4 years but I finally solved the riddle and can now smile every time I think back to the frustration that it needlessly caused.

One member of the EZ/Gummy board, who has become a friend, now has the benefit of the knowledge that this is the case. He is the only person that Ive ever confided in which was as much for my sanity as their gain. I have shared with them nearly every selection that Ive made over the last year or so, and they are able to verify what follows.

The first fact that has to be pointed out is that anyone, including G Hall, is able to spot the key, as he phrased it, with the information that VDW had written at the time. And this I hope will confirm to all that his statement (once you find it every-thing will be so clear that you will wonder how on earth you missed it and youll have the same horses as myself.) was true.

However, the final part of the solution came and tied it all together in Systematic Betting and the Roushayd example and, as intended, it should carry the reader a long way. Notwithstanding that, just the first SEVEN examples that Van Der Wheil ELABORATED on, along with Prominent King, still reveal the main crux of the method.

VDW gave his readers SEVEN combined consistency figure percentages in his reply to Methodmaker, and re-iterated that SUBJECT TO OTHER CONSIDERATIONS the numerical picture can be very illuminating. Some confusion has existed about his percentages, but there never really were any mistakes.

When mentioning SUBJECT TO OTHER CONSIDERATIONS he was referring to the way in which he rated Prominent King and later stated that there are numerous methods of rating and it is simple to devise one yourself, but first a sound basis is required. Note that it is at this point that VDW introduced the ability rating.

His examples brought along their own apparent problems to solve; Love From Verona, with the likes of Dyscole and Persian Crown, and the 1985 King George/Wayward Lad had people puzzled by his comments on the short priced FAVOURITE Burrough Hill Lad.

These seemingly probable dangers were all well out of it subject to the other considerations.

Read and re-read every missing link article and letter, and note everything that is said there are certain phrases and words that he refers to more than once.

Within his Pegwell Bay example, for instance, there is a big hint, but the eye manages to glance right across it.

Remember that the VDW approach is a method, not a system, which produces a numerical evaluation of the ODDS based on relevant factors thereby creating a picture from which it is possible to determine if there is a winner IN the race not OF the race.

It is no good stopping half way through the project or thinking a part fare takes you the full journey. A little was left for you to complete, but all relevant factors were there to set up a second numerical picture, providing you read what was said.

At this point I feel it necessary to remind anyone whos interested:

Once you find it everything will be so clear that you will wonder how on earth you missed it and youll have the same horses as myself.

If you feel that your interpretation of the method is in any way complicated, then it most certainly is, for sure.

I have recently made some posts elsewhere with the decision to depart already made, and hopefully they will have given an insight to what really is possible.

The posts are on a semi-public forum that we are all aware of. From myself nothing is now hidden. However, I can relax knowing that whoever it is with ulterior motives probably doesnt have the knowledge to capitalise! For anyone who has missed these selections/opinions they were as follows:

On the 8 Jul 04, I warned that Imtiyaz wasnt the full ticket, and that Fruhlingssturm was likely to cause him a problem.

On the 17 Jul 04, Lets Roll, Pastoral Pursuits were both backed, with Frank Sonata not quite fitting the bill, using the method.

On the 18 Jul 04, Quija Board and Tropical Lady were both good things but not backed at the prices.

On the 19 Jul 04, Top Dirham was backed, and whilst kalaman was a good thing, he was left, again due to the price.

On the 20 Jul 04 Peter Paul Rubens was a good thing but left, he rated well in front of the rest of the field.

Yesterday I noted that Stretton was out of it and that Adaikali was likely but shouldnt be backed, and to finish off I suggested that Double Vodka should be backed, in more traditional VDW style. A horse that was without a winning class rating, but all the same the trainer really told you it was out to win.

The above isnt an exhaustive list of the horses that should have been backed and left during this period; instead they were mainly in response to other postings that were made.

That is about all I have to say, other than, stick with it".

As I say, I thought it might be helpful for you to know that he confessed to not always 100% telling the truth at times - which is worth bearing in mind when looking at his posts or possibly even some of his selections.
 
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