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The Ultimate Wheil of Fortune - "From Start to Finish", "Entering the Straight"

I have been trying for years to create additional identities on this forum, always foiled by Admin and a great shame imo because this me would have some storming arguments with the other ones. :eek: Re the Saher example taking the 5 most consistent in the whole race, and from these the 3 highest on ability another variation on the theme and i guess the trick might be to know which one to use for each race and best of with that. !
 
Re the Saher example taking the 5 most consistent in the whole race, and from these the 3 highest on ability another variation on the theme and i guess the trick might be to know which one to use for each race and best of with that. !

I'm on the side of "best fit" conditions, then give the runner a numerical figure and a rating for value. That at least gives me a starting point on what is known, it's then a question of anticipating the unknown - predicting.

Some are much better at doing that and some have more information to tap into than others, that's their edge.
 
VDW 101

I've had another go at the tables for three races today to see whether the basic ideas can snag any winners. I probably won't do this again, but it's been an interesting exercise.

I've been mulling over some things I wrote previously and a post from mick mick .

It is a ton of work, though. Imagine trying to do that for 50+ races on a Saturday. You'd have to start on Thursday!

I think the AR is particularly vulnerable in races at the bottom end, like today’s, even though it did happen to trap today’s winner. The horses all run in 4k and 5k races, give or take, and they take turns in beating each other, making their ARs much of a muchness.

If the AR is to have a value, it is probably better employed at the top end.

Re preparing write ups and form study in general i start looking at my races of interest at the 4 day dec stage, but in recent years the 48hr decs have proved a great help to the punter imo. Working in advance can prove frustrating with a going change and N/r sabotaging but at least nothing needs to be rushed and this counts for plenty.

First, these are the most valuable three races of the day (excluding the 3.25 2yo G2.)

I prepared these tables were prepared last night, and Mick is quite right. Good to be doing the groundwork unhurried.

I'll post the three tables, and then a post with my thoughts.
 
2.25 Ascot G2
Although not clear-cut, Master of the Seas came out well. He failed the CR, but his unplaced effort last time out was in a super-hot race. I won't be backing him, so I haven't worried about doing the check boxes at the end, which confirm trainer, going, etc.

What I did think was interesting was the presence of Classic Causeway. As JIB once remarked, keeping a horse in training costs a lot of money. So why, having been campaigned at a much higher level, has he turned up at Ascot again? LTO was over 10f, but he has three 8f entries at a similar level, including today's. With a strike rate of 16%, Ben Curtis is a good jockey booking. At huge and drifting odds, I've had a small bet.

3.45 York G3
I certainly didn't need the table to find Hamish. A bit short, though, even for me! If it gets back to 1/2, I'll probably be tempted.

4.35 Newmarket G1

VDW 101 would seem to indicate Kinross. However, LTO he, and half the field, raced each other, with Khaadem winning decisively. I can only think that his current 22/1 is ground related. The closeness of the odds amongst the top four in the market looks about right, and I won't be playing in this one.
 
Bream Bream

Well, let me try to solve the puzzle for you.

Forget VDW 101, and the belief that it can be done simply by adding a few placings and dividing win prize money by races won.

Take seriously VDW's underlying proposition that to find the good things we need to focus on and balance three things - class, form and what he referred to as "the other factors" but I think of conditions.

Class. On 30/09/22, as a 4yo, mick mick's selection won a class 103 handicap with an average OR of 85.3. It was a 15 runner at Ascot, and almost by definition a decent race, and he won it convincingly, by 2.3l, running on well. Today the prize money was a bit more, 155, but the field was of much the same strength, average OR 85.8. As a mid-year 5yo, one would hope the horse would be capable of improving on his best 4yo performance but it would be an unusual one indeed who was already regressive, so winning an 85.8 off the same mark as he won the 85.3 was entirely realistic. (One could add that thus far in his 5yo career Final Watch has not in fact shown that he is likely to be very progressive, but there is still time.)

Other factors. The main ones were I think for VDW trip, going, course type and weight. All but one of FW's wins and close finishes have been over 7f, today's trip. He has won on good, good/soft and soft and never run on good/firm. That suggests connections may think good/firm won't suit. It may, but there is a questionmark, hence Mick's hope for rain. Today's going was fine for FW. Every one of FW's wins and close finishes have been on tough tracks, mainly Newmarket but once Ascot. On an easy track he has yet to finish within 2l of the winner. This suggests that, comparatively, he is is strong and determined but not fast. Newmarket again for him today, so pefect. As to weight, he has won with 10.08 (the 30/09/22 race) so today's 9.12 was well within what he had proved he could carry.

Form (which I have taken out of order for a reason which I hope will be clear). This is a matter of one's personal judgement but for me, despite his second lto, FW did not have what VDW called "exposed form". I possibly use a tighter benchmark than some, but a horse beaten by much more than a length in a sprint or 7f race doesn't trigger the "obvious form" marker coded into my Excel book. But might he have what VDW termed "less obvious form?"

Having noted that FW is best over 7f, on good or softer going and on a tough course, how does he look if we isolate the races where he had those conditions? Before today there were seven, and in the two highest class of these (on 18 April and 5 May this year) he had failed to make the frame. The two had average ORs of 91.2 and 96.6, which suggests that at the moment those are too high a class for him to win. The remaining five all had average ORs in the range 70.2 to 86.7 on a rising curve, which suggested that today's 85.8 was within his current range.

Of those five, he had won three, with average ORs of 70.2 (14/05/21), 76.1 (19/06/21) and 85.3 (30/09/22). He came 2nd on 31/07/21, beaten half a length by the favourite in a race of average OR 82.2, who was put up 6lb for the win and won in much higher class next time out, (93.4) and again the time after that, so a good run beaten by a better horse. He also came 2nd last time out, beaten 1.8l, in a race where the average OR was 86.7 and in which he might have been expected to have done better, but he didn't get a good start and although he kept going, could not get near the winner. Overall, in races of appropriate class and conditions his record was 1/1/2/1/2 which by anybody's standards is highly consistent.

I think this is an example of what VDW meant by "less obvious form". Unless one was conscious of the kind of factors VDW highlighted in his discussion of Roushayd, (the version in "Racing In My System" by Tony Peach is marginally more helpful than that in "Systematic Betting"), one wouldn't necessarily have viewed FW as a form horse.

In sum, in FW today we had a horse proven to have the class for the race concerned, with perfect conditions and very consistent form in appropriate class in those conditions. That makes him highly plausible as the potential winner, though of course one would also need to evaluate similarly all his rivals before deciding whether he was out there on his own, or whether there might be one or more other runners with even stronger claims.

VDW 101ers would not have selected FW, for although he met the position in the betting forecast criterion, he wasn't one of the three or four lowest on consistency totals (I've no idea how he ranked on the AR). But if finding winners was as easy as the tables in the "Spells It All Out" article suggest, I doubt there would have been any bookmakers - for horse racing at least - by about the end of 1983.
Thank you for such a detailed reply. I had missed the stiff course aspect in FW results and never even considered using ave OR. Very generous of you to share that.

I thought with 10 live races on ITV that there would be a few races to get my teeth into today but there were just too many question marks. Nothing stood out enough for me to comment on. VDW wrote that there is no point trying to find what is not there. If it is there I can't see it. I'll just enjoy watching the races on TV and the when the result is known see if I can see something that I may have missed. Really looking forward to The July Cup to see how Shaquille runs today after that extraordinary run lto.
 
Guys my " pre race " comment was intended as humorous hence my use of a :) of course there can be an irritating side when someone constantly bangs on about there success without posting any pre race examples but that is not happening on this thread.
 
JennyK JennyK post #494 Conditions section contains a very relevant comment Re how we relate and use non hcap form when working a Hcap race, or even like for like Re hcap form in hcap races. Both types can be misleading when related to what is now via OR and Class a more difficult ask. A basic example being a horse may have won a lower grade on Soft almost by default so its far from a positive for a future race on same.

Sometimes we can evidence the answers via the profile but often not so. I guess the upside being that without there would be no value in the markets but in order to make the most of the problem you have to be able to solve it, or at least believe that you have. ! Ratings can cause a simular problem with my ideal being rating obtained from the same or higher grade over todays CD but unfortunately Re my top rated this situation seldom occurs.

I have often pondered what outcome if when working a course which has plenty of meetings i only considered and used ratings and form which came from that course and ignored the rest. Tbh i have swerved a deep investigation because i do not think i would be willing to bet off this, but the thought that there might be some bones in it does persist. !
 
arkle55 arkle55

From what mick mick has written on this thread, nor do I think he does. But why would he - or anyone else for that matter?

It is an average, which is not in itself a concern, indeed I use an average measure myself, for assessing the quality of fields. The difference is that the average I use is of the current ratings by the most important rating compiler (important because the Official Handicapper's largely determine weights in handicaps). And the Official Handicapper's ratings are updated weekly. By contrast, the ability rating averages over a horse's career, which on the flat can be from 2 to 7 or more. And VDW's idea that ability does not decrease is plainly wrong. With animals it is the same as with people, they grow and strengthen, reach their peak, and sadly deteriorate, which of course is why the once virtally unbeatable Serena Williams stopped winning tennis championships and retired. Today's men's final will be interesting from that point of view.

I put up some figures re Copper Knight a while back, and he won again on Friday, which was pleasing to see even though I didn't back him. I was even more pleased Roundhay Park won yesterday. Another old favourite, Muscika, now a 9yo went close in the same race. But these and plenty of other winners, some even older, are most unlikely to be able to win now in the same class as they did when they were 4yos or 5yos.

So, rather than a measure like the ability rating, which by definition counts in those top performances sometimes three or more years ago and probably incapable of being repeated, better surely to use something which, as far as possible, reflects current ability?

And what is most likely to reflect current ability than recent achievement, preferably winning achievement? Even that needs to be handled carefully, winning an egg and spoon race to get a horse's OR up a few pounds to ensure he gets into a forthcoming major race is not uncommon (see Intrinsic Bond's record last summer for an example). And there are other situations which make it appropriate to look back beyond the last win. But basing one's ability assessment (in my case, and I think Mick's, expressed as a rating) on relatively recent performances will produce better results than using a rating which was probably as good as possible in its day but is now capable of being superceded by something more effective.
 
Its no big deal and def a case of each to there own but just to clarify i use the top OR in a race as a benchmark guide to its class. I still think there is some worth in also checking comparative prize money as there can be some big variances in the same grade races, but likewise with the OR when you can witness a 0-105 with the highest rated runner off OR 99.

When the VDW letters first appeared i had difficulties buying into the Ability rating because then and now i tend to feel uncomfortable using averages but his often used fall back of viewed as a guide and subject to other considerations can be applied to most of what any of us attempt. I do not feel there are many straight forward or easy answers indeed on the occasions i do find them i tend to feel suspicious Re there worth. :eek:
 
If we take VDW's ability rating at face value (and I don't know any other way how to take it), it could be argued that not even VDW used it as a defining "rating" for his selections all of the time. Prominent King had an ability rating of 18 and was joint 6th rated from the whole field, with Beacon Light being top rated on 46. What the ability rating can do though is add a positive (depending upon how you view the ability rating) to how you view a horse's chance. A selection that had the highest ability rating and everything else going for it would be what VDW described as a "sore thumb". I suppose any selection that was not rated top on ability (and with everything else in place) could be seen as being (as descibed by mick mick ) "not without negatives" - with any perceived negatives being factored into an acceptable price. VDW did grade his bets in terms of racing certainty, good thing, outstanding bet etc. He also talked about One In A Million being a "good thing" but "not at the price". By the way I'm not defending the value of the ability rating in terms of today's racing - just trying to add my perspective as to how VDW may have used it in practice.
 
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worth in also checking comparative prize money as there can be some big variances in the same grade races, but likewise with the OR when you can witness a 0-105 with the highest rated runner off OR 99.

I made a similar point on another thread this morning mick mick . The stats below show C4 turf C4 h/caps @13k+.

Obviously impacted by the ITV Sunday Series and I guess we have The Racing League to come later this year.

Makes me think if using a LTO day figure of Sunday is woorth pursuing if the grade of race is stronger on a Sunday ???
 
doomster doomster you may recall the story i related a few years ago when an ex member attempting to reverse engineer my past bets seriously advised me to stop betting on Tuesdays. Fortunately i chose not to follow this as a few weeks later i had a Tuesday 20/1 winner although i did have my money placed on the Monday so perhaps this is why. :) Re The Racing League the few bets i have placed on same have produced a profit but i do not like the races which i feel tend to have an unbalanced look about them. Re Sunday racing i have always had mixed feelings about its need or worth.
 
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