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Lists

JennyK

Gelding
Over the years VDW suggested several ways of compiling lists of horses worth following, often based on speed figures. And the most successful VDWer of whom I am aware, Lee, believed that many of VDW's selections were list-based.

I've always been in two minds about lists. On the one hand, it is undeniably interesting when one's tracking arrangements identify one in the following day's cards. On the other, maybe one gives too much attention to "list" horses and in doing so fails to give full attention to the other runners who, taking all the VDW factors into account, have better chances.

One observation my racing friend made seems supported statistically, ie one can rely more on the form of 3yos who beat older horses in handicaps than those who only won a three-year-old only handicap. My database suggests that any 3yo handicap winner has a decent chance of winning a handicap as a 4yo, though those who were in the first category seem to win proportionately more often. Taking sprint handicaps, approaching half of all 3yo winners of handicaps involving older horses seem to win handicaps as 4yos, and at, on average, rewarding odds (around 6/1). This suggests such horses are at least worth putting a marker against, not to follow blindly but when they crop up in a field, to ensure they are not overlooked. The structure of VDW's ability rating - total win prize money divided by races won - seems sometimes to over-state the current ability of older horses and under-state the ability of younger ones, especially relatively lightly raced 4yos.

My database suggests that in 2025 87 3yos won sprint handicaps against older horses. On my historical data something like forty of those should win handicaps as 4yos. I only created the list of 87 this week and of course some have already won, twenty-four. So if the historical percentage works out this year, about a quarter of the remaining 63 should win by the end of the year. (Many of them have already run, without winning, of course, and on the historical evidence a small number may not run as 4yos.) For what it is worth, the 63 are below. Absolutely not a list I'll be following blindly, but I have added, through conditional formatting, coding so that whenever any of these runs in a UK sprint handicap over the rest of the year, until they have won, they will be signalled and then given the usual VDW assessment in terms of ability, form and conditions in the specific races in which they run:

Acrisius
Addison Grey
Arabian Leopard
Billie Be Quick
Binhareer
Brosay
Caburn
Candy
Chuti Manika
Cindy Lou Who
City Captain
Corolla Point
Coul Angel
Dan Tucker
Dandy Magic
Diligently
Diomed Duke
Dr Strangelove
Easy Peeler
Fancy Dancer
Fiorella Princess
Flash Harry
Fluorescence
Galaxy Zoo
Getreadytorumble
Hidden Verse
I Need Your Love
Ironist
Jm Jhingree
Just Queen High
King Of Light
Kinswoman
Kisskodi
Kosometsuke
Lorna B
Mademoiselle
Marchogion
Money Pockets
Nad Alshiba Green
Northern Ticker
Novamay
Pietro
Promise Time
Pure Artistry
Queen All Star
Raneenn
Rare Change
Royal Accord
Sanbona
Sandscreendeliverd
Seraphim Angel
Son Of Astar
South Road
Spiritualism
Star Of Mehmas
Storm Call
Territorial Knight
The Feminine Urge
Tiva
Topwarrior
Up The Anti
Westgate Warrior
Zoulu Warrior
 
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Purely for information, the 24 from the list of 87 who have already won this year are below. For the avoidance of doubt, I did not back any of these because they were on the list, for the very clear reason that I only compiled the list this week.

Al Hussar
All Too Beautiful
Almeraq
Andalprofit
Another Abbot
Cameley Days
Em Four
Far Above Dream
Gold Star Hero
Hockney
Hundred Caps
Im Next
Lexington Blitz
Mae Amor
Marajito
Over Spiced
Pal Joey
Realign
Silver Wraith
Star Chorus
Thurso
Tuco Salamanca
Wheels Of Fire
Ziggys Triton
 
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I have enjoyed several books from people like Jon Gibby and Kevin Blake who use/used lists with good success. I did recently attempt some work on identifying 3yos, initially running over 5-8f, who are upped to 10-12f with stride data suggesting the new trip will suit. It had very mixed results, so has been shelved for now.
 
I have enjoyed several books from people like Jon Gibby and Kevin Blake who use/used lists with good success. I did recently attempt some work on identifying 3yos, initially running over 5-8f, who are upped to 10-12f with stride data suggesting the new trip will suit. It had very mixed results, so has been shelved for now.
This strikes me has being a very good starting point martin_85 martin_85. there has always been value in identifying horses stepping up in distance, particularly when their breeding suggests they'll improve for the extra furlongs and finally show their true ability.

What makes this particular approach more interesting now is the addition of STRIDE DATA ,while it still remains a bit of a mystery to many punters, it clearly has a valuable role to play in highlighting horses whose physical action indicates they'll relish the longer trip.
 
This strikes me has being a very good starting point martin_85 martin_85. there has always been value in identifying horses stepping up in distance, particularly when their breeding suggests they'll improve for the extra furlongs and finally show their true ability.

What makes this particular approach more interesting now is the addition of STRIDE DATA ,while it still remains a bit of a mystery to many punters, it clearly has a valuable role to play in highlighting horses whose physical action indicates they'll relish the longer trip.
T tacker What I have found personally with stride data is well.... inconclusive. It muddies the water somewhat and I couldn't really a find definitive edge one way or another. What I will say is Lower Stride Frequency + Higher Stride length usually points more towards Middle Distance horses and this is more useful the higher grade of race you look at. (y)
 
RaceIQ have some very interesting data these days and there were certainly some horses who displayed a lower stride frequency over shorter trips, who performed much better once upped to 10f+. The issue, as Jenny alluded to, is identifying whether that improvement is sufficient to beat the performances being shown by horses running over the correct distance already.

Maybe if I ran it longer term, it might be a case of accepting longer losing streaks but the winners coming in at 16/1, 28/1 etc make it profitable.
 
martin_85 martin_85 & Sullybomb Sullybomb
Agree there's no way that by simply taking note of these metrics like stride data is going to point anyone to easy pickings but i feel they are another tool in the box, in many ways you could argue that " breeding" falls into a similar category, informative but no guarantees.
The fact is so much can depend on the same factors as we've always struggled with, course, distance, ground etc but i feel now we have access to this stride data which has the ability to assist with form study providing you can also take other factors into consideration.
Asked grok a question about the oaks and feel it has come back with an answer that it couldn't have done 12 months ago, doesn't make it right but worth considering going forward.

 
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