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Handicap Class Droppers

JennyK said:
I think there are more candidates for the four not "form" horse berths in the three lesser meetings on 26/12/86 than you suspect, Tufnel Tufnel. For example both Comedy Fair and St Gabriel. You might like to consider each against, particularly, Gowan House.

Started well again with the HHs; hope the rest have the same outcome.
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Thanks re HHs.

Gowan House won a couple of class 15 Chase Handicaps including with top weight, but failed by a very long way in the same class handicap on LTO as 7/4 fav to give weight to a non form horse unplaced with 10-5 in a class 14 handicap earlier in the month. The Sedgefield race was a step up to a class 20 handicap with top weight again. I get the beaten fav and back at Sedgefield angle but a form horse?
 
To anybody interested,

I was looking through my old files to see if I had matched the same 4 non form horses as Tufnel Tufnel.
Whilst looking I found some old correspondence where I couldn't see the difference between Carved Opal and Catch Phase in terms of form/non form. I then found the Sporting Life cutting of Beau Rangers form, put up by Pitmatic Pitmatic, and spotted something different. Why I don't read these things properly in the first place is beyond me.
I will capitalise the important bits.

In the Form Book Carved Opal's last time out run reads "lw, wnt 2nd 13th, rdn 14th, EV CH whn fell 3 out"
In the Sporting Life cutting it reads "with leaders, ridden 14th, 2nd and SLOWING when fell 3 out"

There is a world of difference between slowing and having every chance.
This, I think, shows that when VDW was talking about form/non form horses he was using the Sporting Life to make his judgement.
It also shows the folly of using the Form Book when trying to make the same judgement.

I believe Pitmatic Pitmatic has said the Sporting Life form for Catch Phrase is too smudged to be read, but I did find something.

In the Form Book Catch Phrase's last time out run reads "hdwy & 5th whn FELL 14th"
If you look at the racecard in the newspapers for the Feltham where the Class/form Buckbe fell you will see "1FOO-PU Catch Phrase".
Unseated last time out, not fell. Again a world of difference.

Anyway I eventually found my file, from a few years ago, with my 4 non form horses.
My 4 are;

Sister Claire
Sunbia
Cottage Leas
Albert The Great

I must have had a reason why I chose those 4.
 
Garry said:
To anybody interested,

I was looking through my old files to see if I had matched the same 4 non form horses as Tufnel Tufnel.
Whilst looking I found some old correspondence where I couldn't see the difference between Carved Opal and Catch Phase in terms of form/non form. I then found the Sporting Life cutting of Beau Rangers form, put up by Pitmatic Pitmatic, and spotted something different. Why I don't read these things properly in the first place is beyond me.
I will capitalise the important bits.

In the Form Book Carved Opal's last time out run reads "lw, wnt 2nd 13th, rdn 14th, EV CH whn fell 3 out"
In the Sporting Life cutting it reads "with leaders, ridden 14th, 2nd and SLOWING when fell 3 out"

There is a world of difference between slowing and having every chance.
This, I think, shows that when VDW was talking about form/non form horses he was using the Sporting Life to make his judgement.
It also shows the folly of using the Form Book when trying to make the same judgement.

I believe Pitmatic Pitmatic has said the Sporting Life form for Catch Phrase is too smudged to be read, but I did find something.

In the Form Book Catch Phrase's last time out run reads "hdwy & 5th whn FELL 14th"
If you look at the racecard in the newspapers for the Feltham where the Class/form Buckbe fell you will see "1FOO-PU Catch Phrase".
Unseated last time out, not fell. Again a world of difference.

Anyway I eventually found my file, from a few years ago, with my 4 non form horses.
My 4 are;

Sister Claire
Sunbia
Cottage Leas
Albert The Great

I must have had a reason why I chose those 4.
Click to expand...
So we are almost in agreement on the 4. Cottage Leas I can see why because of the last run. I could just as easily be wrong though and it was another.
 
JennyK said:
Gowan House 15/12/86

"lw: prom whn rn out after 5th"
Click to expand...
Ah. Surprised there wasn't an RO in the results amongst the papers.

I would side with kicking St Gabriel out then being as Comedy Fair was giving significant weight away when dropped a level but still higher than Market Rasen.

Unless of course The Yomper was beaten further than I thought in his last race.
 
Post mortem on today's slight change of course for the handicap hurdles.

First off I knew before they jumped off that Painted Wolf would not win. I'd already placed the bet earlier at SP and it was 9/2 at the time. Drifted to 9s before the off. I took the wrong view about why a horse so suited to Fakenham was being sent to Fontwell. The race further exposed my over zealous treatment of the horses with no handicap form yet.

Magnolia ran ok and briefly looked like making a winning run approaching the last. But I was a little dismayed to see the bottom weight and one f the probables win at 12/1. Especially given the factor I spotted last night. Dutch should have sprung to mind.

Getting the first 3 home in 4:39 at Fontwell from my 3 way mutli only rewarded me with a shade of evens the book as opposed to the tricast which paid 130 quid to the pound. But it was the right call to make even though Uncle Remus was by far the better on the same factor that She's Notjoeking and Magnolia had above the rest.

Crooked Path won easy enough, a nice watch. And the same factor was well in his favour over the others also, not to mention plenty of other factors.

Away from the hurdle races I was gutted to miss Thunder Rock missing the off by seconds. I lost track of time crossing the tees and dotting the eyes and watched it win as the class/form horse down in class.

Thankfully my other class dropper Yordan, that I did back in plenty of time won like a jet plane and could have won 8 lengths rather than the eased down 3 and a half.

So a decent day, which would have been so much better but for being distracted and a little careless with some of the HH bets.
 
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"Surprised there wasn't an RO in the results amongst the papers."

In those days, Tufnel Tufnel, the Form Book lumped fallers, brought downs, unseateds, pulled ups and ran outs or failed to completes for any other reason in with those who finished outside the first 10 and all had 0s in the final, right-hand column of the results table for each race. One only knew a horse had failed to complete, and the reason, by checking the comments.

I don't know whether the Life, or any other paper, put abbreviations like f, p etc in the line of wins/finishing positions for each horse. If they did, their readers saw more at a glance than Form Book subscribers. It is all there in the Form Book of course, but if one is working quickly it would be easy to assume a 0 horse had just finished down the field when the comments might show it had for example been brought down at the first.

Among the 18 there are some obvious "form" or not "form" horses, but several where it is not completely obvious and one has to try to judge VDW's assessments from his other examples. It would have been really helpful if, later as with the four class/form horse winners among the 07/03/81 "five" winners, he had been explicit, but with the 18 he never was, as far as I know.

Incidentally, when sorting some books out yesterday, I found I have two copies of the 1983/4 and 1984/5 Form Books, and all four in really good condition. If you are missing either or both and would like them, send me a pm with your address and I'll pop them in the post.
 
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Tufnel said:
Post mortem on today's slight change of course for the handicap hurdles.

First off I knew before they jumped off that Painted Wolf would not win. I'd already placed the bet earlier at SP and it was 9/2 at the time. Drifted to 9s before the off. I took the wrong view about why a horse so suited to Fakenham was being sent to Fontwell. The race further exposed my over zealous treatment of the horses with no handicap form yet.

Magnolia ran ok and briefly looked like making a winning run approaching the last. But I was a little dismayed to see the bottom weight and one f the probables win at 12/1. Especially given the factor I spotted last night. Dutch should have sprung to mind.

Getting the first 3 home in 4:39 at Fontwell from my 3 way mutli only rewarded me with a shade of evens the book as opposed to the tricast which paid 130 quid to the pound. But it was the right call to make even though Uncle Remus was by far the better on the same factor that She's Notjoeking and Magnolia had above the rest.

Crooked Path won easy enough, a nice watch. And the same factor was well in his favour over the others also, not to mention plenty of other factors.

Away from the hurdle races I was gutted to miss Thunder Rock missing the off by seconds. I lost track of time crossing the tees and dotting the eyes and watched it win as the class/form horse down in class.

Thankfully my other class dropper Yordan, that I did back in plenty of time won like a jet plane and could have won 8 lengths rather than the eased down 3 and a half.

So a decent day, which would have been so much better but for being distracted and a little careless with some of the HH bets.
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I'm surprised to read about a horse on here that isn't even dead yet, in fact only 3yr old and having only his 5th ever race.
YORDAN won it well but " jet-plain! ? i'd be cautious.
I've read elsewhere that he's a group horse ? For me that's yet to be seen, also read where he won with just " hands and heels" again not quite true.
So how do we rate the performance ?
Well he beat another 85 rated horse nearly 4L eased down, perhaps worth another 10lbs to 95 on the basic numbers, however, let's recall the ascot race where the winner GOLDMOYNE rated 91 now 95 (YORDAN 87) will the handicappers want to raise YORDAN 10lbs to 95 ?
They might well do so but that's where the puzzle lies and why we enjoy the sport, so much to consider and debate.
FWIW my opinion is he'll get 8lbs because yes he was eased down close home but the race was done with by then and remember he got 3 smacks in and around the furlong pole from KEVIN STOTT which wasn't ideal imo but i suspect connections were on.
 
Chesham said:
On the Gallop Out sectionals Town Queen looks the o e to take out of this race for the future, likely to get dropped 1Lb

Well done Tufnel Tufnel and T tacker
Click to expand...
Thanks Chesham Chesham

T tacker I was simply referring to the manner in which he beat yesterday’s opposition. He’s almost certainly not a group horse and Stott won too far even easing up. But from a backer’s point of view all I cared about was genuine effort and the jockey getting the job done. Next time he runs I’ll go through the whole process again and try not to have a preconceived idea of what might be the winner in the race.

From a form perspective before yesterday’s race the horses who dominated the finish last time out had been in form. The class drop was to my view a genuine class drop. And the return to Southwell looked a very good move.
 
JennyK said:
"Surprised there wasn't an RO in the results amongst the papers."

In those days, Tufnel Tufnel, the Form Book lumped fallers, brought downs, unseateds, pulled ups and ran outs or failed to completes for any other reason in with those who finished outside the first 10 and all had 0s in the final, right-hand column of the results table for each race. One only knew a horse had failed to complete, and the reason, by checking the comments.

I don't know whether the Life, or any other paper, put abbreviations like f, p etc in the line of wins/finishing positions for each horse. If they did, their readers saw more at a glance than Form Book subscribers. It is all there in the Form Book of course, but if one is working quickly it would be easy to assume a 0 horse had just finished down the field when the comments might show it had for example been brought down at the first.

Among the 18 there are some obvious "form" or not "form" horses, but several where it is not completely obvious and one has to try to judge VDW's assessments from his other examples. It would have been really helpful if, later as with the four class/form horse winners among the 07/03/81 "five" winners, he had been explicit, but with the 18 he never was, as far as I know.

Incidentally, when sorting some books out yesterday, I found I have two copies of the 1983/4 and 1984/5 Form Books, and all four in really good condition. If you are missing either or both and would like them, send me a pm with your address and I'll pop them in the post.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Some papers I saw in that period did have F, P etc and most of them, apart from the Daily Mail who used the same placings 1-9 and L for last as VDW, only went to 4th place and 0 beyond.

It is disappointing for VDW not to have named which were which in the 18 but I guess he felt that would have been too much info to “splash in front” of everyone.

But given between you, myself and G Garry we seem to agree on all but one of the 18 form horses anyway.

If anyone knows how far The Yomper was beaten in his last race before Boxing Day 86 then I’d be interested to know as that would solve my one query on that race.
 
Tufnel Tufnel according to the form book prior to Boxing Day 1986 The Yomper last ran on 17th December 1986 at Catterick (Race number 1287 of '86 / '87 form book).

The Yomper was 4th - beaten 3 lengths; head; 8 lengths.

Form comments were (cl up; led 3rd to 4th; led after 3 out to 2 out;; sn btn).
 
Pitmatic said:
Tufnel Tufnel according to the form book prior to Boxing Day 1986 The Yomper last ran on 17th December 1986 at Catterick (Race number 1287 of '86 / '87 form book).

The Yomper was 4th - beaten 3 lengths; head; 8 lengths.

Form comments were (cl up; led 3rd to 4th; led after 3 out to 2 out;; sn btn).
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Thanks. Much appreciated.

And that changes things for how I see The Yomper now because in my understanding (which may of course be wrong) that means The Yomper was not a form horse.

And my 4 changes to Sister Claire, The Yomper, Sunbia and Albert The Great.

One thing though could change Sister Claire if anyone knows the circumstances in the UR in her last race. Because the bare result I have seen states the 5/4 Fav August was brought down in the race. At it seems it's possible the UR from SC might have played a part in that. But the more important point is how was Sister Claire running and at what stage of the race did she part ways with the rider?
 
The Form Book simply says "fell 1st".

There is no way, conceivable from all we know about how VDW assessed form status, that he would have viewed Sister Claire as a "form" horse. Judging by her positions in the betting on her last race and that on Boxing Day, connections obviously had confidence in her, but as regards VDW "form" status, that butters no parsnips.
 
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JennyK said:
The Form Book simply says "fell 1st".

There is no way, conceivable from all we know about how VDW assessed form status, that he would have viewed Sister Claire as a "form" horse. Judging by her positions in the betting on her last race and that on Boxing Day, connections obviously had confidence in her, but as regards VDW "form" status, that butters no parsnips.
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Thanks Pitmatic Pitmatic again and JennyK JennyK

I agree fell at the first would be fine if there was form in the last race, but as you say whilst there was clearly some confidence in the horse, there's no way it can be described as form horse in the way VDW seemed to be operating.

So, I'm happy with the four now that is cleared up along with the true tale of what happened in the Gowan House race. In fact I just found this printed the following day of the race GH ran out.

Screenshot 2026-10-16 at 12.21.02.png

Also from another paper on the same day a funny clip relating to the previous victory of The Hacienderos who was in the race example VDW gave for A Wing And A Prayer. Sounds like Barney wasn't happy with the win.

Screenshot 2026-10-16 at 12.18.20.png
 
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