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Class/form horses

For completeness, sharing Chesham's concern about "lurkers", Tufnel Tufnel, who has contributed more to discussion about VDW's methods and their possible application to current races than anyone else on this forum over the last year or two, responded to my post with a pm explaining what puzzled him, and I replied as helpfully as I am prepared to be.

In thinking about Leodis Leodis's comment re weight and my response in the post after which Tufnel pm'd me, a thought occurred which hadn't before (though it is so very obvious I wonder why it hadn't) - namely that in addition to the publicly available win prize money divided by number of races won rating of ability (and the time/merit rating for young horses on the Flat), with handicaps VDW had another publicly available rating of ability, that made by the Official Handicapper. It is the case that for most of the "VDW years" exact ORs were not possible to know in many cases, but that is actually beside the point with handicaps. With them, VDW could easily have ranked a field by the weight each runner carried. He would have had to decide whether to rank by weight allocated or weight actually carried and, with either, whether to adjust by wfa where it applied. I am thinking that maybe the relationship between his ability ratings and an Official rating ranking based on weight, may help make sense of the "easy cracking of the handicap" comment. It would certainly cover the "easy" bit.

Maybe this offers a potentially more frutiful and today-relevant question to pursue than some VDWers have pondered over the years, such as whether the "Erin numbers" were mistakes in placings totals or a means of rating for the purpose of narrowing a field, or how the two ratings in the right-hand columns of the Little Owl etc examples were compiled.
He had read the Marvex books, so there may be a helpul link to your above theory in them.

Regards
 
I was looking over a couple of early VDW good thing examples namely Drumlerry and Quickapenny a pair of novice chasers.

Drumlerry had only run in 2 chases and finished 3rd in both of them after winning a very low class novice hurdle on its 3rd last race. Its last race had been an impossible task against 2 of the better chasers in training at the time.

Quickapenny had won a handicap at Towcester with 10-13 a few weeks earlier before his Cheltenham win in April where he carried 9-7. Before that had been placed twice.

In Drumlerry’s race the much more experienced novice chaser Stopped, who had also taken on much better chasers recently and had a higher ability rating, was sidestepped by VDW. For what reason it’s difficult to tell. Stopped appeared to be something of frustrating horse for punters that season. Drumlerry as stated had only just gone chasing on the back of a hurdle win. Clearly a lot of considerations at play here and simply being a form horse with a higher ability rating than other form horses was not apparently as important as the statement “The class/form is most likely to win” would suggest.

Quickapenny appeared to be on far more solid ground but even so, a winner at Towcester doesn’t strike as an obvious place to find a Cheltenham winner in a better class race, albeit in April. But I mention them both because they were novice chasers.
 
"Stopped, who had also taken on much better chasers recently and had a higher ability rating, was sidestepped by VDW. For what reason it’s difficult to tell."

I am sure that Lee's advice (and I refer to him as the poster with the greatest understanding of VDW's work I have come across) would be assume that VDW had a reason, one consistent with all his other mainstream examples, and work to find it. He (Lee) also made what I see as the very pertinent point that it is a matter of levels of understanding. One starts, quite probably with the Prominent King or Little Owl etc examples, and by seeing how well, or not, the apparent procedures work with other examples, one hopefully understands more. And as one keeps at it, things hopefully come together. Lee emphasised the time and effort involved (which in my view he in no way over-stated), but that the more one works at it and understands, the easier it is to go back to the less obvious examples and see how VDW got to them.

Think "consistent "form"", not just "form", and ask yourself why VDW (a) did not view Stopped as a consistent "form" horse and (b) presumably saw Drumlerry as one. Actually (b) is the more difficult, though a partial explanation to which you have eluded presents itself. But that partial explanation only becomes what I hope is the full one when it can be seen alongside similar situations.

The business is about seeing each of the mainstream examples in its own terms but also in the context of the totality of such examples. We can often not be sure of VDW's reasoning, because he didn't spell it out, and must be alive to elevating coincidence to "rules". But the more examples one finds of particular situations, the more warranted one is for viewing what one finds as intentionality rather than coincidence.
 
"Stopped, who had also taken on much better chasers recently and had a higher ability rating, was sidestepped by VDW. For what reason it’s difficult to tell."

I am sure that Lee's advice (and I refer to him as the poster with the greatest understanding of VDW's work I have come across) would be assume that VDW had a reason, one consistent with all his other mainstream examples, and work to find it. He (Lee) also made what I see as the very pertinent point that it is a matter of levels of understanding. One starts, quite probably with the Prominent King or Little Owl etc examples, and by seeing how well, or not, the apparent procedures work with other examples, one hopefully understands more. And as one keeps at it, things hopefully come together. Lee emphasised the time and effort involved (which in my view he in no way over-stated), but that the more one works at it and understands, the easier it is to go back to the less obvious examples and see how VDW got to them.

Think "consistent "form"", not just "form", and ask yourself why VDW (a) did not view Stopped as a consistent "form" horse and (b) presumably saw Drumlerry as one. Actually (b) is the more difficult, though a partial explanation to which you have eluded presents itself. But that partial explanation only becomes what I hope is the full one when it can be seen alongside similar situations.

The business is about seeing each of the mainstream examples in its own terms but also in the context of the totality of such examples. We can often not be sure of VDW's reasoning, because he didn't spell it out, and must be alive to elevating coincidence to "rules". But the more examples one finds of particular situations, the more warranted one is for viewing what one finds as intentionality rather than coincidence.
I'm relating the class/form definition to a horse VDW said was the class/form horse in the race in the shape of Buckbe. But later said he was not consistent. Which seemed odd to say given the consistency total of 7. But of course as you discovered consistent form clearly had a different definition to VDW, even though he had referred to horses being consistent or not consistent in seemingly direct reference to their consistency totals such as with Fair View ("not at present consistent") and from the same letter (below) the background on why he used the consistency totals device.

"FORM CAN MISLEAD
Form, even though consistent
, can mislead if taken alone when the horse is running against others with greater ability. Class, which in my view is a major factor, can throw you off course if the horse is out of form, so to establish a reliable measure a combination of elements must be used to achieve consistent results.

To find elements which can be combined and used methodically requires considerable thought and each must be logical. There are numerous ways to approach the problem of winner-finding methodically and the one which I will demonstrate has proved highly successful and consistent for a considerable number of years. Each element was selected after a great deal of research and when used as intended, will place the odds strongly in the backers' favour.

Form is considered a major factor to winner-finding and what is form if it is not that one performance is better than another?
Horses who consistently perform better than others should then command interest. My own extensive surveys show that a horse winning three races in a row is likely to extend the sequence by a further victory at a ratio of one in three.

Expressed as a percentage it is 33%, considerably better than 2% which is the representative odds o f a horse that failed to reach the hunt on its last three outings.

Consistent horses win races and to illustrate I will give some examples which show percentage wins next time out from various form combinations . . 111 33%, 121 32%, 131 29%, 141 26%, 122 30%, 313 24%, 214 24%, 404 5%, 000 2%.

The figures show beyond reasonable doubt that consistent form does have an important part to play. If there are three horses in a race each having won their three last races, the figures indicate that it is almost certain one of them should win, 33% +33%
+ 33%= 99%.

Only about one chance in a hundred that the winner will come from elsewhere, so it would be going against the odds to select any other horse in the field.
"

The above seems to back up the assumption by most that consistent form is related to form figure combos that total to low numbers. But form isn't always related to low placings and therefore consistent form can be two different factors.

If Buckbe's presence as the class/form horse but not a consistent class/form horse precludes siding with the next on class/form, then why would Stopped being the class/form but not a consistent class/form not have the same effect on Drumlerry's elevation to good things status?

Stopped had run over fences more than Drumlerry having been out since before Christmas. Stopped was just 4/1 for the much higher class Arkle Chase just a month earlier and ran 3rd albeit beaten 25 lengths. He had previously finished runner up to Dramatist, a horse who also beat Drumlerry in D's last race.

It's difficult to see the logic in Stopped being considered an inconsistent form horse, as it is to a certain degree with Buckbe. How does a 3rd in the Arkle rate worse than a 3rd at Bangor?

As you suggest JennyK JennyK in the face of consistent form, it does seem difficult to see why outside of the consistency totals, VDW would see Drumlerry as consistent but not Stopped.

And it may well be that in line with his formula, class was not actually "kingpin" and consistent form was the principle factor.

But if the definitions of consistent form change from race to race then what use would that be?

Why was Buckbe inconsistent? A failure to complete can only really be seen as a siginficant negative if it was a repeated failure to complete or the horse was noted as well beaten at the time anyway. And a failure in class higher than the horse was capable of cannot be seen as a downturn either, and VDW clearly said as much with the Gaye Chance example.

Stopped had a UR in his last 3 runs (interestingly as fav in the race he said Gaffer was a horse one could have backed) just as Buckbe had a Fall. In his other 2 runs Stopped was 2nd to Dramatist (way better class horse) and 3rd to Chinrullah (again much better class) in the class 110 Arkle.

Buckbe was out of it's depth class 99 3rd last race when 5th then fell dropped to class 30 and then won back up to class 54.
Out of it's depth cannot make a horse inconsistent. A fall is bypassed when adding the totals, why if it represents something negative?

And why did VDW say Catch Phrase was 2nd on class/form with last 3 placings involving a Fall, Pulled Up and a 6th (much higher class though)?

Where is the commonality in all that?
 
I think some time what you should do is look at brilliant horses and ask the question of them and you get to see some sort of light of whats consistent and not, then you understand what consistent means lets take frankel why was that consistent because it was unbeatable over mile with its kick why not over 6 fur or 12fur he said could tun well in july print because it would nto have been so unveatable infact likly get beat so not as consistent why not derby because might not stay so would not be consistent at it. why red rum over national fences because showed incredible consistency over them why not gold cup then because was not as consistent over other fences. and you could go on and on these are extreme to get point over is the horse consistent over certain distance certain going certain tracks or over everything arkle a other one was very consistent not less giving lumps of weight away then its consistency was challenged. so you have three horses in a race all consistent no question about it all 111 last three races so only way to see is what races where they consistent in and does it suit todays race. one won three races over mile in fast ground one won three races over mile 2 fur soft one won three races over mile on soft its mile soft today what one sticks out thats the difference todays race and conditions to the horses consistency at that conditions not a matter of last three races all consistent but can it do it now on this day.
 
"But if the definitions of consistent form change from race to race then what use would that be?"

None at all as stated. But what if there were "rules" as part of the definition which, when applied (in exactly the same way in each example) seem to suggest there were different approaches?

Compare, for example, Little Owl and Sunset Cristo with Gaye Chance. VDW described all three as the class/form horses in their races. Two are straightforward (at least in respect of their status as consistent "form" horses), but Gaye Chance not. Why? Obviously because of the last run. Ditto Beat The Retreat, though the last run situation was different to Gaye Chance's.

Assuming VDW had, as he claimed, a method, his definition of a consistent "form" horse had to embrace both the obvious (Like Little Owl and Sunset Cristo) and the less obvious (like Gaye Chance and Beat The Retreat). it is a matter of finding a definition which includes all those who should be included, and excludes all those who shouldn't (including Stopped and Buckbe).

VDW did indeed write that Catch Phrase was "second on "class/form", but he did not say that Catch Phrase was a consistent "form" horse. When it came to what to back and what not to, for VDW the difference between being a "form" horse and being a consistent "form" horse seems to have been decisive.

"The assumption by most that consistent form is related to form figure combos that total to low numbers"

An entirely reasonable assumption, but only partially the case. Would "most" view 13 as a "low number" in this context, I wonder? But 13 is what Roushayd's last three placings totalled to, and as we know VDW described him as a "certainty".
 
"But if the definitions of consistent form change from race to race then what use would that be?"

None at all as stated. But what if there were "rules" as part of the definition which, when applied (in exactly the same way in each example) seem to suggest there were different approaches?

Compare, for example, Little Owl and Sunset Cristo with Gaye Chance. VDW described all three as the class/form horses in their races. Two are straightforward (at least in respect of their status as consistent "form" horses), but Gaye Chance not. Why? Obviously because of the last run. Ditto Beat The Retreat, though the last run situation was different to Gaye Chance's.

Assuming VDW had, as he claimed, a method, his definition of a consistent "form" horse had to embrace both the obvious (Like Little Owl and Sunset Cristo) and the less obvious (like Gaye Chance and Beat The Retreat). it is a matter of finding a definition which includes all those who should be included, and excludes all those who shouldn't (including Stopped and Buckbe).

VDW did indeed write that Catch Phrase was "second on "class/form", but he did not say that Catch Phrase was a consistent "form" horse. When it came to what to back and what not to, for VDW the difference between being a "form" horse and being a consistent "form" horse seems to have been decisive.

"The assumption by most that consistent form is related to form figure combos that total to low numbers"

An entirely reasonable assumption, but only partially the case. Would "most" view 13 as a "low number" in this context, I wonder? But 13 is what Roushayd's last three placings totalled to, and as we know VDW described him as a "certainty".
Re Roushayd, he didn't actually appear to use the consistency method to appraise that race, using last time class and form as the basis.

Gaye Chance and Beat The Retreat are obvious cases to me as both were LTO runs in much higher class.
Buckbe and Stopped clearly are not obvious. But both had only not shown form when completing a race in better races. Just as GC. And BTR fell last time but in higher class.
 
"Re Roushayd, he didn't actually appear to use the consistency method to appraise that race, using last time class and form as the basis."

Quite a few have posted on those lines, seeing VDW as having a consistency method and the Roushayd method. They are wrong. (Consider, for example, Ascenia and Pipsted. Neither 13, but not far short.)
 
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"Re Roushayd, he didn't actually appear to use the consistency method to appraise that race, using last time class and form as the basis."

Quite a few have posted on those lines, seeing VDW as having a consistency method and the Roushayd method. They are wrong. (Consider, for example, Ascenia and Pipsted. Neither 13, but not far short.)
But Ascencia was one of the 3 most consistent totals from the first 6 in the betting (as was Ekbalco even with his total of 13).

Pipsted was mentioned within the Roushayd articles/letters. And Roushayd was joint 4th in the consistency totals from the first 6 in the betting for the Old Newton Cup with 13 as had Vouchsafe.

Tender Type had 6, Ile De Chypre had 11 (or 5 if applying the common sense/judgement VDW suggested was necessary), Clifton Chapel had 12 (or 4 if applying judgement he was out of his depth in the Derby last time).

The issue being, what is the point of having the device of adding up the placing totals from the first 5 or 6 in the forecast and noting the 3 lowest if it is discarded on other factors?
 
"the forecast"

"Always mark off the four highest ability ratings and three most consistent from the forecast" as per the 07/03/81 examples gets one off the mark, but it is the interplay between the ideas embodied in such guides and how VDW seems to have applied them in practice which moves understanding forward.

VDW pointed out an obvious pitfall with "the forecast" with Strombolus. For other selections, Son Of Love and Love From Verona for example, I'm not sure any forecast included them in the first six
 
"the forecast"

"Always mark off the four highest ability ratings and three most consistent from the forecast" as per the 07/03/81 examples gets one off the mark, but it is the interplay between the ideas embodied in such guides and how VDW seems to have applied them in practice which moves understanding forward.

VDW pointed out an obvious pitfall with "the forecast" with Strombolus. For other selections, Son Of Love and Love From Verona for example, I'm not sure any forecast included them in the first six
Love From Verona was 8/1 jt 5th in the Mirror/Press Agency forecast on the day.
Son Of Love was not mentioned.

In the 7/03/81 article though he marks off the 4 highest ARs regardless as to if they are in the forecast areas.
The Vinter, Ellen Mavoureen, Game Laddie, Dalket and Brown Barman were all marked with an asterisk but were not in the first 6 of the forecast he showed.
 
You illustrate my point perfectly, Tufnel Tufnel.

Just reading the instructions from the 07/03/81 article, one does not know whether VDW meant both elements - four highest ability ratings" and "three most consistent" are both intended to be "from the forecast", or just the latter.

The Sunset Cristo and Gaye Chance examples, in respect of the horses you mention, strongly suggests VDW did not mean the four highest ability ratings to be limited to the forecast, and of course the inclusion of Bishop's Yarn's ability rating in the 1988 Mackeson, especially with its reference back to previous illustrations of "the first part of the Method", supports that. But he clearly looked beyond the "four highest" in the field for quite a few of his selections.

And it is the same with the "three most consistent from the forecast". You found one a forecast which included Love From Verona in the first six. Maybe if you were able to check the Market Harborough Evening News etc you might have found one including Son Of Love in the first five/six, but maybe not. And how robust is a method which relies on finding the forecast which proves to have had the eventual winner in its first 5 or 6? Do we really believe that VDW took the Life, the Chronicle, and numerous daily papers and used them all?

Often in his letters and articles VDW offered useful advice for those wanting to understand his method, I think very much in the spirit of when he advised the inexperienced to stick with those top rated on ability. But to get closer to how he found all the selections we have to go beyond such advice and hopefully build a more satisfactory understanding of the method by seeing how the ideas behind the advice seem to have played out in practice, ie in his examples. And we need to bear in mind that he was quite explicit in a 1996 letter to Tony Peach that he never did spell it all out
 
You illustrate my point perfectly, Tufnel Tufnel.

Just reading the instructions from the 07/03/81 article, one does not know whether VDW meant both elements - four highest ability ratings" and "three most consistent" are both intended to be "from the forecast", or just the latter.

The Sunset Cristo and Gaye Chance examples, in respect of the horses you mention, strongly suggests VDW did not mean the four highest ability ratings to be limited to the forecast, and of course the inclusion of Bishop's Yarn's ability rating in the 1988 Mackeson, especially with its reference back to previous illustrations of "the first part of the Method", supports that. But he clearly looked beyond the "four highest" in the field for quite a few of his selections.

And it is the same with the "three most consistent from the forecast". You found one a forecast which included Love From Verona in the first six. Maybe if you were able to check the Market Harborough Evening News etc you might have found one including Son Of Love in the first five/six, but maybe not. And how robust is a method which relies on finding the forecast which proves to have had the eventual winner in its first 5 or 6? Do we really believe that VDW took the Life, the Chronicle, and numerous daily papers and used them all?

Often in his letters and articles VDW offered useful advice for those wanting to understand his method, I think very much in the spirit of when he advised the inexperienced to stick with those top rated on ability. But to get closer to how he found all the selections we have to go beyond such advice and hopefully build a more satisfactory understanding of the method by seeing how the ideas behind the advice seem to have played out in practice, ie in his examples. And we need to bear in mind that he was quite explicit in a 1996 letter to Tony Peach that he never did spell it all out
I have always taken it he meant the 4 highest ARs in the race and the 3 most consistent from the forecast as that seems clear in the races he showed in Spells It All Out.

In other crosschecks such as the Cobnut, his steps for filtering are somewhat ambiguous and his race numerical picture doesn't make it crystal clear that he meant the combination of the qualifiers from the first 2 steps were to be used for calculating the 3 most consistent rather than only those who qualified in both the first 2 steps. But as we know, his wording and terminology had a habit of appearing contradictory on occasion.

I think from what he said regards Strombolus and Little Nugget, he did actually check several racing paper forecasts and at least one daily newspaper because he knew the situation in regards to those examples. As to if he did that everyday in his own private evaluations that is another matter I guess. But the general opinion of those times was that the trade papers had their own forecasts and the daily press by and large used the press agency forecasts.

The forecast issue is of course immaterial these days as the live betting which starts the day before is the best guide and I personally take it from the morning of the race to be my "forecast" area. I often add in a quote or two beyond the cut off points if those runners seem to be in form also, but generally as we know the further you go down the list the less likely you'll find a winner. The 33/1 winner I had on Friday with the HH method was part of a 3 horse book, but I thought I had solid grounds for including the horse based on how it had been placed and it's most recent run looked promising in the face of being 7lb out of the weights behind a well handicapped winning fav, running on at the finish over 2m 4f rather than the minimum of 2 miles and being a clear improvement on it's previous displays. To be honest I was perplexed as to why it was not in the first 6 of the betting.

But back to the Spells It All Out and Pegwell Bay tables. In the first 3 races he showed in SIAO he went into more detail than the 4th or indeed the 5th. But in the Gaye Chance and Sunset Cristo races he appears to go through them in ability rating order within the top 4 ratings but suddenly skips a horse or two. Fair View was mentioned as top on AR but noted as "not at present consistent" which to most people was obviously a reference to not being in the 3 most consistent from the forecast. But when he gets to the 3rd on ability he skips both that and the 4th to mention The Engineer. He briefly goes back to King Or Country (the forecast fav and 4th on AR) but doesn't mention the 3rd AR horse The Vintner who was 8th in the forecast or Bregawn who 5th in AR and surely a consistent form horse too.

A similar issue arise in the Pegwell Bay examples. He doesn't show all of the ARs for the race as in SIAO including the highest AR horse in the race Smart Tar who was clearly in the forecast he showed as joint 5th. His words about that horse are interesting, though I gather plenty of folks don't think the way he presented that horse in the PB race is of much consequence. I tend to be on the side of those who have said that he was being somewhat mischievous here and placing an Easter egg for the reader to find. Those that disagree think the fact Pegwell Bay beat Smart Tar last time out holds no significance. But if he suggested readers using the method turned back to their records for previous races they had evaluated, why would the opposition in those previous races not hold any significance?

I guess it's to what degree of significance one should apply to the previous result?

One thing regarding what I suspect your approach for defining consistent form is, on trying to apply that myself (obviously only my interpretation of what I think yours is) I can see why you might find it doesn't sit well with Ascencia. There is no question the horse's last run was far in front of anything it had shown before (as we so often see with novice hurdlers who switch to handicaps once they have their mark) so isn't the improvement enough to negate the previous efforts especially when considering lightly raced novices?

I suspect you are comparing Ascencia's last 3 runs to the 9 year old Balmers Coombe's?
 
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Tufnel Tufnel

Buckbe is the example we need to ponder re consistency and "form".

Despite being stated to be the "class/form" horse, VDW did not back him because there were "other factors", ie other than "form" and "class" which did not support backing him. In a later article VDW said that Buckbe was not a consistent horse, one of the factors which went against him.

It is clear from Buckbe that it is possible to be the "class/form" horse in a race not be a consistent horse, which immediately indicates two categories of "class/form" horses, ones like Buckbe, not consistent, and others that were consistent. What distinguishes the two seems to me to be the issue.
 
Tufnel Tufnel

Buckbe is the example we need to ponder re consistency and "form".

Despite being stated to be the "class/form" horse, VDW did not back him because there were "other factors", ie other than "form" and "class" which did not support backing him. In a later article VDW said that Buckbe was not a consistent horse, one of the factors which went against him.

It is clear from Buckbe that it is possible to be the "class/form" horse in a race not be a consistent horse, which immediately indicates two categories of "class/form" horses, ones like Buckbe, not consistent, and others that were consistent. What distinguishes the two seems to me to be the issue.
The thing that sticks out for me with that horse is although it went up in class last time and won, it perhaps wasn't enough to ignore the 3rd last run, which was higher class than Kempton, but perhaps not high enough.

Interesting that nagwa nagwa has just mentioned Righthand Man. Who's 3rd last run was higher class than both subsequent runs, although of course RHM won both of those races (unlike Buckbe), but both races were much lower than that 3rd last race. But Chepstow was the practically the same class as Ayr.
 
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