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Change of trainer

JennyK

Gelding
Quite often a horse in a race I am analysing has changed trainer within the relatively recent past.

Never having met a trainer, let alone spoken to one about this, I can only theorise, but I assume improved track performance following a change of trainer might come about because the new trainer gets his/her horses fitter, or judges that the horse needs to be placed in different kinds of race than previously (distance, going, course type etc), or be ridden differently, and there are probably other ways. I am wondering about how long a horse needs to be with a new trainer before any improvements in track performance could reasonably be thought to be due to the change.

The answer is sure in part to be down to specifics, so it is something of a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but does any forum member has a sense of how long a horse needs to be with the new trainer before his/her training regime and greater skills could make a difference to the horse's on track performance?
 
Don't know JennyK JennyK but it reminds me of a bit of info i once had in 1981, might have mentioned this before, not sure but a mate of mine who regularly visited Dickinsons at Harewood and he asked me to meet him in a pub we both used from time to time where he told me a tale about a horse that was in training with Tom Tate (michael's father in-law ) tom knew it was good but he wanted it spot on for it's seasonal debut.
Michael decided he would need a minimum of a month to get to understand how the horse works and get it fit enough for the day, at the time i felt it was the Dickinson yard that were training him yet the public didn't know that.

Also i the horse that Haggas got from stoute is worth considering for this subject...MORE THUNDER or similar ?
 
Timeform use a green arrow to suggest an uplift for a Trainer Switch is positive

IMG_3540.jpeg
You could research each trainer with an uplift

Mick Appleby used to do well with horses snapped up in sellers , but these days he is being sent better horses and probably does not need to spend time finding little nuggets in sellers

IMG_3539.jpeg
 
It probably depends on why it's moved trainer.... from what I've heard, sometimes a horse is with a top trainer and they think the horse has had it's day, so they move it on to a smaller trainer, or they just don't have room in their yard for it anymore because better horses have come in, but sometimes the owner just moves trainer, as you say, to try and freshen it up / in the hope that a new trainer will breed new life into the horse. I have noticed this myself, and from memory, I think it's quite often the 1st, 2nd or 3rd race with the new trainer, more often 2nd or 3rd than 1st. Except Ben Haslam, he seems to take 3 or 4 runs to turn around the J P McManus horses that he gets.
 
Thank you all for your thoughts.

I was clear beforehand that there would be no simple answer but the points you have made open up some avenues for research.

While I am sure that not all trainers are equally competent, and a professional punter/tipster to whom I used to supply some of the data I download each day sometimes commented that such and such a horse had been switched to a better/worse one, maybe even drawing on Timeform's green arrows for all I know, I also wonder whether "lesser" trainers might actually do better with some horses as they could be more important in their yards than in more prestigious ones. The difficulty, as with so many ideas potentially relevant to successful race analysis, is how to identify the more probable reasons for improvements, preferably in ways that allow scope for accurate prediction rather than just post-race understanding.
 
Another angle is to follow Godolphin sales

Pedigree and Genetic Assessment of Secret Force (IRE)

Bay Colt, Foaled February 23, 2022
By Frankel (GB) ex Duneflower (IRE) (by Dubawi (IRE))
Trainer: Charlie Appleby
Breeder: Godolphin
Sales Price: 55,990 Guineas (Tattersalls 2025 Breeze-Up Sale)​

🧬 GENETIC PROFILE & INBREEDING COEFFICIENT

Wright’s Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI)

Secret Force (IRE) has moderate inbreeding influences from major ancestors. Key duplications include:

  • Northern Dancer – 4S x 5S
  • Mr. Prospector – 5S x 5D
This level of duplication suggests a COI in the range of ~7-9%, typical of elite-bred modern thoroughbreds but still below the threshold where inbreeding depression becomes a concern (>12%). It combines reinforcement of elite traits with manageable genetic diversity loss.


📈 DOSAGE PROFILE & RACING TYPE

  • Dosage Profile: 1-7-13-11-0
  • Dosage Index: 0.83
  • Center of Distribution (CD): -0.0625
This dosage and CD indicate strong stamina orientation, with a likely optimal range of 10–12f+. The presence of many solid intermediate chefs-de-race (like Sadler's Wells, Rainbow Quest, Dubai Millennium) contributes to this.


🔍 NICKS & CROSS RATINGS

Frankel x Dubawi (Galileo–Dubai Millennium)

This is a high-class nick — elite in Europe, albeit relatively rare due to Godolphin retaining Dubawi daughters and Juddmonte standing Frankel. Previous examples of this cross or variations on it include:

  • Inspiral (Frankel x Sadler’s Wells-line dam) – Champion miler.
  • Adayar (Frankel x Dubawi mare)Derby & King George VI winner.
Rated A+ by many pedigree analysts. This cross compounds exceptional class and versatility from:

  • Frankel's imperious middle-distance class.
  • Dubawi’s genetic depth and adaptability.

🧬 FEMALE TAIL LINE (Bruce Lowe Family 13-c)

➤ Mare Line: Desert Blossom (IRE) → Elshamms (GB)

  • Elshamms (by Zafonic) placed in the G3 Prestige S.
  • Strong tail female line: produces classic-distance performers with class and durability.
  • The family includes Shamardal, a critical influence through Desert Blossom’s grandsire.
This line has a record of transmitting speed over stamina, balancing the colt’s otherwise stout pedigree nicely.


🏇 RACE PERFORMANCE ANALYSIS

2 Starts – Unplaced, TFR 69+ (projected)

Debut: Dwelt, rear early, made steady headway from 2f out without being fully asked — clearly not knocked about.

“Sure to progress, probably enough to make him of interest for a similar event next time.”
Latest Start (1m2f AW): Again slow into stride, ran green, finished 6th of 12 but not far off 3rd, and had better late sectionals than most.
🧠 Mental immaturity is likely the limiting factor so far — not a question of ability.


⌛ POTENTIAL AND PATH FORWARD

Timeform Ratings Insight

  • TFR 69+ (with "plus" sign) = expected rapid improvement.
  • Race comments emphasize a long-term project with upside.

Next Steps

  • Handicap mark likely to be generous.
  • Expect strong progress next run, particularly when racing over 10f+ on turf.
  • Possible gelding in future if mentally immature, but no urgency based on this profile.

🔚 SUMMARY & RECOMMENDATION

TraitAssessment
Pedigree Class🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Nicking RatingA+ (Frankel x Dubawi)
Inbreeding Coefficient~7–9% (well-balanced)
Dosage/Distance AptitudeMiddle-distance (10f–12f)
Race PromiseStrong progression expected
Best Use CaseFollow in 10f+ maidens, step into handicaps

🔮 Verdict: Secret Force (IRE) is a blue-blooded colt still learning his trade, but with every indicator — genetically, physically, and tactically — pointing toward stakes-level ability at 3 and beyond, particularly over middle distances on turf.



Godolphin
 
The 8.32 Nott. today offers scope for some speculation on the issue of trainer changes.

A nine runner 6f handicap where the VDW class/form horse is Nazron, but not a consistent form horse and probably not a class/form horse VDW would have backed.

Of the nine, five have been with the same trainer for a long time, while four have changed trainer relatively recently.

The four divide into two pairs - both Buccaby and Kats Bob have won since the transfer and one can speculate about the extent to which their successes were due to the new trainers.

The other two have yet to win and prospective speculation is more interesting than retrospective assessment as one is not biased by knowing the outcome.

The first is the VDW class/form horse, Nazron. According to the Post, switched from Roger Varian to Ivan Furtado on 18/11/24 when his previous owner sold him. His record, only once out of the frame in ten runs, including two wins, does not suggest a obvious reason for the sale, and the switch to Mr Furtado would seem more likely to be because of the change of owner, not dissatisfaction with how he was handled by Mr Varian. (Though as far as I can see, Mr Furtado is not one of the current owner's usual ones.)

Nazron, now a 4yo, won one handicap as a 3yo, a class 180 (average OR 78.9) over 5f on g/f on a speed course off an OR of 81. After that he ran once more for Mr Varian, now off 90, in much higher class and came a respectable sixth, beaten two lengths.

Then on 18/11/24 a new owner and transferred to Mr Furtado. Now off 91, he ran twice in late 2024, both in races of much higher AORs than previously and was well beaten in both.

First run this year on 08/04, by when he had been with Mr Furtado for over four months, so I'd presume he would be fully aware of the horse's state of fitness. Could the horse show improvement over his 3yo winning performance, as I would expect most 3yo handicap winners to do?

Not so far, in three runs, all of higher AOR than the 3yo win and off higher ORs. In the second of the three, much the lowest in class, he did however post an sf (61 using TheBluesBrother TheBluesBrother's ratings) and a performance index (my ratings) approaching those achieved with the 3yo win, so hopeful. That race was a class 52, AOR 80.4, off 85, over 6f.

On his next run, his most recent, he was pushed up a long way in class, 309, AOR 89.8, off 83, over 5f, and was well beaten as an outsider.

Today he is back to 6f, where he achieved his best performance for Mr Furtado, dropped a long way in class, 57, AOR 83.3, except for trip in much the same conditions as for his 3yo win; g/f going on a speed course, much the same weight, and off 82, just 1lb higher than the 3yo win. If he has a clear run, then I'd expect a performance (on my performance ratings) near to or better than those of his 3yo win and penultimate run this year. The improvement he would need to show to win today over those two is well within the range I assume for 4yos. If he fails to at least match his two best previous ratings, without obvious reason such as problems in running, I would doubt that the change of trainer has been beneficial.

The second is, for me, even more interesting, Brazen Bolt, an 8yo, and owned throughout by a company.

He had had numerous wins for his previous trainers, the Quinns, but after a disappointing 7yo year - eight runs, three early in Bahrain including a win, but in five since in the UK, best placing 9th (last of 9) - he was switched to Ruth Carr in 01/02/25. This looks more like the owners hope a change will make a difference, but it may or may not be significant that the owners have recently bought a second horse and she is also with Ms Carr, not the Quinns, which could indicate a degree of dissatisfaction.

Ms Carr has now had Brazen Bolt for over four months and presumably knows his current level of fitness and has her opinion on what conditions he needs to win. The benchmark for me is his last handicap win, on 09/09/23 as a 6yo, a class 103, AOR 87.3, over 6f on good on a speed course, off an OR of 87. Some 7yos and 8yos do even better than they did as 6yos, but that is not something one can rely on; more likely 8yos show some regression.

So far, only one run for Ms Carr, on 17/05, in a class 52, AOR 78.6. 5f on g/f on a speed course. It may be significant that Brazen Bolt has never won on his first run of the year in the UK, and all of his five wins since 010/01/22 have been after a relatively recent run (8 to 24 days). No great shock that on 17/05 he was well beaten, though there is some positive in his Post comment and he led for 3f before being headed 2f out and weakening quickly in the last furlong. The fact that he was in a 5f race is interesting in that since 01/01/22 he had usually run over 6f or 7f, and all five wins in that time have been over those distances.

Today he is back to 6f, raised in class to 57, AOR 83.3, but now running off 80 - all three figures well below those for the last win in a UK handicap, though it was well over eighteen months ago.

One consideration is that the Carr stable does not seem to me to be in general a gambling one; horses win at long prices even when they have form to suggest they should be going off much shorter, Rousing Encore on 14/05 a recent example. So the fact that Brazen Bolt is the complete outsider does not worry me, though it looks from the last five wins under the Quinns that the owners (and maybe their employees) may bet and a marked shortening of Brazen Bolt's price would for me be significant.

On my performance ratings, Brazen Bolt's win on 09/09/23 was his best number (in UK races) by a country mile compared with his ratings since, and I'd like to see a very much better figure (today or in the next race or two) than achieved in any of his UK handicap runs since before reaching a view as to the (likely) rate of regression and current realistic target. That said, although I'll be surprised if Brazen Bolt wins today, I wouldn't be totally shocked, especially if there was significant market interest in him, which for me would indicate that the owners, and possibly employees, of Fishlake Commercial Vehicles Ltd think he has some sort of chance. FCV is a private company and publicly available information is limited, but neither the sole Director nor the Company Secretary appear to have any other horse interests, apart from the as yet "raced" only once second company horse ("raced" because on its only start it refused to race).

In short, not a race I am betting in, as Nazron looks a weak class/form horse from the VDW perspective and whether his current trainer will have improved him is an open question. That said, both the horses with relatively recent changes of trainer who have yet to win are of interest to me. If Nazron doesn't go close, without clear reason, I'd be doubtful about the effect of the switch. Brazen Bolt will surely show more than lto but I doubt he is quite ready to win yet; a good run would be both a positive for the trainer switch and a marker to keep an eye open for him next time.
 
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Ivan Furtado is the reason I bet on horses / was the 1st trixie I ever hit - 5 years ago (ish) / before Covid I used to bet on football, but if I had a spare £1 I'd have a punt on a horse, just a £1 single, and now and then I hit, but focussed on football acca's. Covid hit and the football schedule was ruined, so I started betting on the horses instead. I only used to play singles but one day I had £0.40 left so I put a £0.05 E/W trixie on Ivan Furtado, all 3 horses won at big odds and I won about £120 from £0.40. That was the day I got hooked on horse racing, I thought, bloody hell, £120 from £0.40, if I'd have done a £1 trixie I'd have won £2.4k. I backed Ivan Furtado all the time for ages after that, but he actually doesn't hit that much and hasn't brought a big return in for me since, but does get the odd big odds winner.
 
Ivan Furtado

Furtado has just moved in to Eboracum Stables near Easingwold as previous tenant Craig Lidster was moved on. Furtado has inherited some nice horses.
Craig Lidster has found a new base in Linda Stubbs old yard in Malton which he is leasing with a view to buy. Of the 60 horses he had at Eboracum only 15 went with him. I'm not sure how many staff stayed and how many of Furtados travelled with him. Ivan better realise that Craig won 500k and trained 34 for winners last year which wasn't enough for his landlords.
 
Nothing from Nazron, so no evidence yet that Ivan Furtado has got anywhere with him.

By contrast, a good, improving run by Brazen Bolt, suggests to me that Ms Carr will find a race for him in due course. Goes on the to follow list.
 
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Up and coming trainer James Owen is worth an honourable mention on this thread. The dual purpose trainer has proven he has the knack of improving horses from other yards and these types have accounted for approximately 80% of his total output. I ran some data just earlier comparing a before/after scenario of the performance of the horses he's sourced when they were with their previous trainers and compared that with his performance. Data is from when he started training up until 05/06/2025 and covers all race-codes. Basically he has got 200 wins from 127 horses covering 956 runs and is operating at a strike rate of 20.92% with new horses over all runs and collectively his mean normalised finishing position equates to beating ~ 60% of their rivals - that is extremely good going. In comparison those 127 horses previously ran 1524 times for other trainers (a mean of ~11.9 runs per horse so reasonably exposed while being relatively younger) & managed only 172 wins for a strike rate of 11.29% , beating just over 50% of their rivals which is the population average when adjusted for field size. So quite an uplift and running his numbers through some significance tests show this is no fluke.
With a positive WAx of just over 3 wins above expected per 100 runs, he is profitable at BFSP.

JamesOwen1..jpg

I also broke down those runs by sequential run count and whilst that reduces the sample-sizes for him to achieve absolute significance (p-val <=0.05 to a 95% Confidence Interval) there is general significance by Log-Likelihood ratio & standard-normal-testing in most of the first ten runs of this sample and that's where they do best. In fact compared to nearly all trainers who have had over 400 runs with these types i would venture to say he's been outstanding.
Again over the first ten run sequence you would be beating the xchange market after commission.
The market should correct sooner rather than later although up until last year Mick Appleby (who is another who plays this game and has an outstanding record, especially on the first run) was still profitable.

Here's James Owen's "new-recruits" broken down by the first 10 sequential runs and then grouped together for any runs greater than 10.

JamesOwen2..jpg

I would warn any one though that Owen & Appleby and there are a few more, are in the minority - being that for the vast majority of trainers it does take a lengthy amount of time to get to grips with stock from other yards. It may just be that there is intent and purpose from the yard doing the "moving" and not the "receiving" in a large majority of horses in this case. It sounds tempting when you notice a regally bred ex-Godolphin or Ballydoyle horse who once won a maiden and the handicapper expected a 90+ horse but loses it's way and you think "that must retain some ability and is now running off a 65 for Mr N.E.W. Trainer" but if the move is to an "unconnected" trainer, chances are the horse is possibly a bit of a nutcase in temperament or has some career "niggly" and whilst there are some that do slip through, you will not be the only one who has spotted it. The overall population strike rates of Run 1, 2, 3 & 4 are all to varying degrees below "random chance" - which means the "average" with that average meaning 1/avgFS, or the same strike rate you would get by using a pin or your finger and randomly selecting a horse from the newspaper over a large enough sample. Those horses in the Run 1 sample have a slight excuse as the mean DSLR is well into triple digits. Runs 2, 3 & 4 gradually improve in strike rate but even then still remain below average.
On the plus side Run 1 is actually profitable to BFSP, just over break even since 2011 but an 8% return since 2020 and only one losing year - BUT you would need to have backed all of the runners (not recommended) and most of these do not have sexy looking profiles or recent form so at a strike rate of around 8% you will experience the terror of long, long losing runs.
Happy Days.
 
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Ivan Furtado is the reason I bet on horses / was the 1st trixie I ever hit - 5 years ago (ish) / before Covid I used to bet on football, but if I had a spare £1 I'd have a punt on a horse, just a £1 single, and now and then I hit, but focussed on football acca's. Covid hit and the football schedule was ruined, so I started betting on the horses instead. I only used to play singles but one day I had £0.40 left so I put a £0.05 E/W trixie on Ivan Furtado, all 3 horses won at big odds and I won about £120 from £0.40. That was the day I got hooked on horse racing, I thought, bloody hell, £120 from £0.40, if I'd have done a £1 trixie I'd have won £2.4k. I backed Ivan Furtado all the time for ages after that, but he actually doesn't hit that much and hasn't brought a big return in for me since, but does get the odd big odds winner.
I had a £75,000 double on the day Ivan ran two at Southwell back in 2018. Turned out that there was a mix up and both ran in the wrong races and Ivan was fined 2 grand by the BHA. Both horses were disqualified. The Books refused to return a penny from my original bet.
What can you do??
I can still remember their names..... Millies Kiss &.....no that was another time. Different trainer that day.
Aye..African Trader & UpShit Creek....no.... African Trader & Scribners Creek.
I still have the betting slip.
I look at it just for kicks or when times get tough.
What can you do?? 🙃
 
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