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B365 Position Payout

PHS

Stallion
Does anyone have any opinions on whether this is good or bad value for the punter?

I had my first bet on it last night on Distinction (16:48 Pon). B365 were best price 5/1 and Pos Payout (return) was £40, £15 and £9 for the first 3 places.

The problem with it for me is lack of competition leading to an unknown as to how it rates against the market plus of course you lose BOG (though there was none last night of course).

How can the punter decide if it's value or not?
 
Does anyone have any opinions on whether this is good or bad value for the punter?

I had my first bet on it last night on Distinction (16:48 Pon). B365 were best price 5/1 and Pos Payout (return) was £40, £15 and £9 for the first 3 places.

The problem with it for me is lack of competition leading to an unknown as to how it rates against the market plus of course you lose BOG (though there was none last night of course).

How can the punter decide if it's value or not?
if they want us to do it - it must favour them - just looked on there (after a load checks to prove who I am) I see it is now boost a bet - my friend who once upon a time monitored all the bookies ( he personally knew and was a massive Kevin Booth fan ) reckoned you happily lay all boost bets.
 
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forgive me - I looked further -

Pontefract, 4.48pm , one mile two furlongs, good ground. Class 5 handicap, eight runners, four year olds and upward, rated fifty-one to seventy. Stalls inside.

Before anything else, the OR management check on the older horses.

Class 5 ceiling is seventy. Standard penalty for a win is five points for a four to six year old, four points for a seven year old and above.

The Cookstown Cafu — 7 year old, OR 64. Wins and takes four points. New mark sixty-eight. Still inside the Class 5 ceiling. That is the first fact that matters and it matters a great deal after what we learned last night. Won last time out at Newcastle off OR fifty-nine. He has been raised five points to sixty-four for that win. Course record shows two wins from three at Pontefract. That is a fact on the racecard. His OR has been managed down from eighty-five in 2023 to sixty-four today. That is a twenty-one point decline over three years. He changed trainer from David O'Meara to Fionn McSharry on the first of September 2025. His last run under O'Meara was off OR seventy-four. He has since declined to sixty-four under McSharry. Won first time out this season at Newcastle. McSharry's last fourteen days — one from two, fifty percent. That is a small sample but it is not the figure of a yard that is cold.

Tonight he steps up to one mile two furlongs for the first time in his career. Every win in his record has come at one mile or shorter. That is a fact and it is the one fact that introduces genuine uncertainty. His sire Invincible Spirit has an average winning distance of seven and a half furlongs. The trip is unknown territory.

Distinction — 8 year old, OR 62. Wins and takes four points. New mark sixty-six. Inside the ceiling. CD form — won at Pontefract in June 2025 off OR sixty-one and again in July 2025 off OR sixty-four. His OR has been managed from seventy downward. Latest run on the twenty-second of May was a third at Pontefract off OR sixty-one, beaten a quarter of a length. That is a competitive effort at this track. Trainer John Mackie zero from five in the last fourteen days. Jockey Finlay Bassett zero from one. Those are the negatives. The positives are course form, a competitive recent run at this track, and an OR that leaves room within the class after a win.


Bay Dream Believer — 7 year old mare, OR 58. Wins and takes four points. New mark sixty-two. Well inside the ceiling. Won three times in the summer of 2025 off marks of fifty-seven, fifty-nine and sixty-one. OR is now fifty-eight — below all three winning marks. She is attractively handicapped relative to her own winning history on this evidence. Last run was fifth at Ripon on the seventeenth of May, five lengths behind the winner. Not disgraced. Jason Hart rides, five wins from forty-seven in the last fourteen days.


Now the younger horses, assessed on ability and form without the OR management lens.


Finlaggan — 4 year old, OR 69. Handicap debut at Pontefract on the twenty-ninth of April — second, beaten a neck. That is the most recent relevant fact in this field. He went close over course and distance on his first start in handicap company. Went off favourite at Ripon last time and finished seventh, beaten nearly seven lengths. Ripon may have found him out or the ground may not have suited — the spotlight says as much. Daniel Tudhope rides, four from twenty-three in the last fourteen days. Former Godolphin horse now with David O'Meara. RPR seventy-five on that Pontefract run is the equal highest in this field alongside Thequietman's best.


Holly Mist — 4 year old filly, OR 67. Six races, no wins. Third and fourth in recent starts. Stepping up to one mile two furlongs for the first time. Roger Varian yard, five from twenty-nine in the last fourteen days. Nothing in her form that demands inclusion.


Thequietman — 5 year old, OR 66. Best RPR of eighty-six came in Ireland under O'Brien. Since joining O'Meara the record is regressive — ninth, ninth, fifth. He has not shown his Irish form since the yard change. That is a fact.

Pol Roger — 6 year old, OR 68. Two year losing run on the record. Spotlight says more interesting back at Ayr. No case to answer here.

Everyoneknowsadave — 4 year old, OR 68. Zero wins from eight on turf. All three wins came on all-weather. Tonight is good ground on turf. That is a fact.



So. Three horses stand up to examination and they stand up for different reasons.

The Cookstown Cafu has the OR management profile, the course record, the winning reappearance, and the penalty calculation working in his favour. The unknown trip is the single fact against him and it cannot be dismissed. Every win he has recorded has come at a mile or shorter. Tonight is a mile and a quarter.

Distinction has course and distance form, a near-miss at this track eleven days ago, and an OR that remains within the class after a win. The trainer and jockey are cold but the horse is in form at this venue.

Bay Dream Believer has an OR below her own winning marks, a yard that won twice in the last fortnight, and Jason Hart back in the saddle having ridden two of her three wins in the summer of 2025.

Finlaggan went close over course and distance on handicap debut and is not one to dismiss, but he is a four year old being assessed on ability rather than OR management and his Ripon run raises a question.

The facts leave The Cookstown Cafu and Distinction as the two most defensible selections, with the trip question on the former the only reservation of substance. Bay Dream Believer merits inclusion if her summer 2025 form is considered representative of her current ability at OR fifty-eight.



Odds spread

Average OR in the field: 65.25

HorseORDiff from avgChance %Min odds
The Cookstown Cafu64-1.2522%3.75
Finlaggan69+3.7518%4.50
Distinction62-3.2516%5.25
Bay Dream Believer58-7.2514%6.25
Holly Mist67+1.7512%7.25
Thequietman66+0.7510%9.00
Pol Roger68+2.755%19.00
Everyoneknowsadave68+2.753%32.00

The Cookstown Cafu and Distinction are the two horses the facts support. The trip question on the former is real. If it answers that question tonight, connections have a horse that can win again in this class before the penalty pushes him out of it.

sources BHA and Racing Post only
 
Thanks for the above markfinn markfinn ;)

So, going back to the original question.

The current best Money Back odds (B365) for Distinction are 7/2 (most are 100/30).

The current Position Payout figures are £43, £16, £11 (£10 stake).

Position Payout looks better to me than Money Back where you win £2 more if it wins but only get your stake back if it's 2nd or 3rd.

Am I looking at this correctly?
 
I asked AI -
What is Position Payout?

It’s a horse racing market that allows bets to be placed on fixed returns based on finishing position, unlike traditional each-way betting which pays a fraction of the win odds for placed selections. The higher the finishing position, the more you receive. 

From a single stake you get the biggest payout for 1st, a lower payout for 2nd, lower again for 3rd, and so on — in line with the number of each-way places offered on the race. All returns are displayed upfront before you bet. 

Are you reading your comparison correctly?

Yes, broadly — but let’s be precise. With your figures on Distinction at £10 stake:



Position Payout wins on all placed outcomes. You give up £2 if it wins, but gain £6 if 2nd and £1 if 3rd.

The key question is where Distinction is most likely to finish. If you think it’s a genuine place candidate but not necessarily the winner, Position Payout is clearly better value — you’re getting meaningful returns for 2nd and 3rd rather than just your money back.

The only scenario where Money Back beats it is if Distinction wins, and even then it’s only £2 better. The asymmetry strongly favours Position Payout unless you’re very confident of a win.

So a genuine attempt at competition to the BF place market
 
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Bay Dream Believer has an OR below her own winning marks, a yard that won twice in the last fortnight, and Jason Hart back in the saddle having ridden two of her three wins in the summer of 2025.

So the OR is proven right again - price was just about acceptable - food for thought - do we really need all the noise and data that is available ?
 
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