So why have we still got bookmakers??????

[pawras]

Personally I like the concept of the exchanges and wouldn't want that to go.

Whether gov or privately owned they can't keep their fingers out of the till re the take out on the tote, commission on the exchanges or over rounds at the bookies.

 

[cosmicsports]

Hi cosmic,
Its the power of the bookmaking lobby,two many people are making money for old rope .I agree with you about the tote.We did have one but the government flogged it off to the privateers.
The sad thing is bookies like banks are viewed as a 'natural' part of our society and culture,when in reality they are just a bunch of crooks.
kenny

Look, everybody is a bunch of crooks.
In the days I was a regular of the racetrack the management were after girlfriends.
What about the other one when they made the free fiver gift one derby day ? That free fiver was a sort of made to purpose baknote for the day and after the eighth race the said employee was spotted by me with a small packet of those on his way to the betting desks. When he saw me he started running but later on he appeared in my neighbourhood and wehenever he sees me he says "oooh, my good friend, how are you today ?".
The thing here is if somebody does what I say it's going to prove very popular. In Greece at least everyone will become customer. Subject to logical profit percentages of course.

 

[kenny jones]

Personally I like the concept of the exchanges and wouldn't want that to go.

Whether gov or privately owned they can't keep their fingers out of the till re the take out on the tote, commission on the exchanges or over rounds at the bookies.

Hi pawras,
How about a non profit cooperative based exchange with 1% comm to pay for overheads.I must admit me in my ignorence I thought that was the idea behind the original betfair.Got that wrong!!!!
Betfair is still workable and can be profitable...just about!!
ken

 

[cosmicsports]

Peeople power in a capitalist venture.
What a strange combination.
Unfortunately we are ruled by two camps:
One camp wants to make Carnaby street into a labour camp to grow corn.
The other camp is Gove.
The other countries are similarly atrocious.

 

[pawras]

Hi pawras,
How about a non profit cooperative based exchange with 1% comm to pay for overheads.I must admit me in my ignorence I thought that was the idea behind the original betfair.Got that wrong!!!!
Betfair is still workable and can be profitable...just about!!
ken

Technically it wouldn't be that 'that' hard to set up another exchange, technology has moved on a lot since betfair appeared i.e. instead of spending a lot on infrastructure up front you could host it in a cloud service such as Azure or AWS and scale up as required, the code for the site is more a time and effort thing for a small team that know what they're doing.

Unless new markets/countries open up there's only so much liquidity to go around, so given that the standard commission for Betfair, Betdaq and Smarkets is now only 2%, some usp is needed to take a bigger bite out of betfair's arse than what Betdaq and Smarkets have managed.
Going from 2% to 1% isn't going to make much difference to your avg bod but if no premium charge would appeal that much why haven't betdaq and smarkets not got a bigger marker share?

 

[tacker]

Technically it wouldn't be that 'that' hard to set up another exchange, technology has moved on a lot since betfair appeared i.e. instead of spending a lot on infrastructure up front you could host it in a cloud service such as Azure or AWS and scale up as required, the code for the site is more a time and effort thing for a small team that know what they're doing.

Unless new markets/countries open up there's only so much liquidity to go around, so given that the standard commission for Betfair, Betdaq and Smarkets is now only 2%, some usp is needed to take a bigger bite out of betfair's arse than what Betdaq and Smarkets have managed.
Going from 2% to 1% isn't going to make much difference to your avg bod but if no premium charge would appeal that much why haven't betdaq and smarkets not got a bigger marker share?

This is a little over my head but if we replaced the tote with a betfair like exchange wouldn't turnover likely to increase especially since punters would appreciate money would be going back into the sport ?

 

[mick]

BF attempt to justify the PC by claiming that some customers by winning money off others are preventing some of said others from continuing to bet and this costs BF in lost commission. Perhaps i am biased but imo this reads as rubbish, i wonder they don't set up a separate exchange with normal commission charges for those who currently have the PC . A kind of reverse VIP and let the so called sharks take on each other. I did actually suggest this to them several years ago but received no response.

 

[pawras]

I want best price end of, I would use the tote now to some degree but the win market is shit, until the tote win returns out perform isp I'm not interested.
It needs updating with the figures since the end of lockdown but below sufficently shows how fingers are in the tote till too much.
How this will look like by the end of the year and going forward seen as new owners took over just before lockdown , remains to be seen.

 

[pawras]

BF attempt to justify the PC by claiming that some customers by winning money off others are preventing some of said others from continuing to bet and this costs BF in lost commission. Perhaps i am biased but imo this reads as rubbish, i wonder they don't set up a separate exchange with normal commission charges for those who currently have the PC . A kind of reverse VIP and let the so called sharks take on each other. I did actually suggest this to them several years ago but received no response.

I read another statement where they were a bit more honest and admitted they just didn't like a number of people making a lot of money on 'their' exchange that they paid for etc i.e. even though they were getting 5% off them just like anyone else they just wanted more commission out of those people, very much envy/jealousy of other people making money which isn't at all uncommon in general.

 

[pawras]

The tote win market vs isp drilled down by no of runners.

 

[mick]

I read another statement where they were a bit more honest and admitted they just didn't like a number of people making a lot of money on 'their' exchange that they paid for etc i.e. even though they were getting 5% off them just like anyone else they just wanted more commission out of those people, very much envy/jealousy of other people making money which isn't at all uncommon in general.

Tbh your above was also my conclusion. Why do people work for or become Bookmakers, i suspect that many have tried and failed to make it pay by taking the odds and do not like the idea that some can succeed in an area where they cannot. It is unfortunate that some punters also appear to feel the same about each other but as you say not unique to horse race betting.

Personally when i see someone doing well on this forum i bloody love it, and rather than feel envy i look to see what i can learn from there work. The Bookmakers are the true enemy not each other.

 

[pawras]

Tbh your above was also my conclusion. Why do people work for or become Bookmakers, i suspect that many have tried and failed to make it pay by taking the odds and do not like the idea that some can succeed in an area where they cannot. It is unfortunate that some punters also appear to feel the same about each other but as you say not unique to horse race betting.

Personally when i see someone doing well on this forum i bloody love it, and rather than feel envy i look to see what i can learn from there work. The Bookmakers are the true enemy not each other.

Even bookmakers don't have to be the enemy per se, i.e. if they just formed a book to a % over round , took money on the odds offered to an advertised level of liability without favour or prejudice to whose money it was and changed their odds accordingly. On an exchange you might fancy a horse and you can immediately see how much is available at various prices, bookies could perhaps try that.
But greed/envy/jealousy and an opinion that if someone makes x for their own efforts they should hand over a cut, means we are where we are.

 

[mick]

It is not just the hypocrisy of account closure by punitive restriction. Back in the day there used to be some mutual trust and respect between backer and layer but when you witness how the once respected large firms now operate this is no longer so. We used to call them the old enemy and this was not derogatory but imo they are now The Enemy full stop. In the main deceitful parasites who treat there customers with contempt.

 

[kenny jones]

It is not just the hypocrisy of account closure by punitive restriction. Back in the day there used to be some mutual trust and respect between backer and layer but when you witness how the once respected large firms now operate this is no longer so. We used to call them the old enemy and this was not derogatory but imo they are now The Enemy full stop. In the main deceitful parasites who treat there customers with contempt.

Hi Mick,
I was looking at the titles owned by Flutter.It includes timeform, sporting life betfair amongst others.All these groups were once independent.The sporting life was probably the best racing paper we have ever had in the UK.Timeform was fiercly independent and proud of its phenomenal tradition.Betfair peaked and now boasts of on online casino!!!!!.
kenny

 

[mick]

Indeed Kenny and i often wonder what Phil Bull would have to say on these matters, and The Sporting Life as it once was. !

 

[pawras]

It is not just the hypocrisy of account closure by punitive restriction. Back in the day there used to be some mutual trust and respect between backer and layer but when you witness how the once respected large firms now operate this is no longer so. We used to call them the old enemy and this was not derogatory but imo they are now The Enemy full stop. In the main deceitful parasites who treat there customers with contempt.

they now want all the profit all of the time, the idea that they're making a couple of % less profit cos a relatively small number of people are successful gamblers is not acceptable to them.

 

[tacker]

Should we be giving more support (if that's the right way of putting it) to the smaller outfits like Geoff Banks ?

 

[mick]

Should we be giving more support (if that's the right way of putting it) to the smaller outfits like Geoff Banks ?

Dear Geoff gets plenty of stick but speak as found i have long term winning accounts with him and Starsports. All i would say is i only tend to use them when topping up on a drifter on the day and perhaps this makes my business more acceptable ( so far ).

 

[nicksar]

Should we be giving more support (if that's the right way of putting it) to the smaller outfits like Geoff Banks ?

Not sure if he still does his monthly rebate scheme but he used to give losing clients a 10% refund per month for every thousand lost to retain the profitable business....all smoke & mirrors is Geoff.

 

[pawras]

I had a look at the market for the 1300 Bath on betfair, smarkets and betdaq at different times i.e. this morning, 10 mins before and in the last couple of mins.
If this is at all indicative it looks like betfair isn't getting as much of market share as it used to but another big chunk hit befair after the screenshot just before the off. However smarkets has over taken betdaq and betdaq seems to rely on last minute money more than the other two.